Islamophobia the socially acceptable hatred?

[Dcdrac]

My personal position on religion is I am am an aethiast however I respect the right of those who are religious to express their beleif on the provisio they do not force it on to me or others.

This runs for Christians, jews, Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists, pagans et al.

Now it strikes me that currently islamphobia has become a socially acceptable form of hatred, this troubles me deeply how far are we away from placing increasingly stringent restrictions on Muslims and even possibly excluding them from national life in whatever polities and communiteis they happen to reside in.

I fully expect to get flamed about this but the degradation of one persons freedom leads ultimatly to the degradation of my freedom.

 

[Giz]

My personal position on religion is I am am an aethiast however I respect the right of those who are religious to express their beleif on the provisio they do not force it on to me or others.

This runs for Christians, jews, Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists, pagans et al.

Now it strikes me that currently islamphobia has become a socially acceptable form of hatred, this troubles me deeply how far are we away from placing increasingly stringent restrictions on Muslims and even possibly excluding them from national life in whatever polities and communiteis they happen to reside in.

I fully expect to get flamed about this but the degradation of one persons freedom leads ultimatly to the degradation of my freedom.

Is it bigotry, or is it people saying that the views of some* "community" leaders/preachers are abhorrent? (i.e. throw gays off cliffs, unbelievers are cattle et).

People should have the right to free expression, whether they are BNP, extreme religious types or whatever… but they shouldn't cry when their expressed beliefs are criticized.



* I am sure that large amounts of moderates just don't get airtime due to being un-newsworthy.

 

[zeggman]

I think it's mostly a reflection of a few things:

Lots of Muslims think it's okay to blow up innocent civilians deliberately to make a political point.

Lots of Muslims who don't want to blow themselves up still think it's okay to encourage others to do so.

Lots of Muslims who don't think it's okay to blow themselves up or encourage others to do so are still not very outspoken against the practice.

Lots of Muslims who are outspoken against the practice don't get much coverage in the Western press.

I'm living in the United States, where (outside of 9/11) the effects of Islamic terrorism have been negligible. I favored the building of the "Ground Zero Mosque" because I think it's a pure freedom of religion issue.

I know it's more dangerous for people like me (secular humanist, atheist, both of the above) to live in an "Islamic" society than in a "Christian" society. For that reason alone, I'm more wary of Muslims than I am of Christians, even though I'm more likely to be dealing with Christians as a political force.

 

[geni]

I think it's mostly a reflection of a few things:

Lots of Muslims think it's okay to blow up innocent civilians deliberately to make a political point.

Not really. You may be confused due to differing defintions of "innocent civilian".

Lots of Muslims who don't want to blow themselves up still think it's okay to encourage others to do so.

Not really relivant. While attacked that result in certian death our outside the western norm they are mearly an extension of the very high risk tactics that have historicaly been adopted.

 

[Ryokan]

Lots

Define lots.

I know it's more dangerous for people like me (secular humanist, atheist, both of the above) to live in an "Islamic" society than in a "Christian" society. For that reason alone, I'm more wary of Muslims than I am of Christians, even though I'm more likely to be dealing with Christians as a political force.

The following is going to depend, again, on your definition of 'Islamic'. I'm guessing you mean countries with a majority population of Muslims, and not Islamic theocracies - because then Christian makes no sense as there's presently only one Christian theocracy, the Vatican.

I've spent considerable time in countries with a majority population of Muslims, mainly Bosnia and Turkey. In fact, I'm leaving for Turkey again next week. My family owns a residence there.

I was in Bosnia as a soldier, in the aftermath of the attempted genocide of the Muslim population, with a death toll that makes the body count of modern Islamic terrorism pale in comparison. I was in much more danger from the Christian population there than I was from the Muslims.

As for Turkey, I really can't see how you'd be in any more danger there than most other European countries. At least, there's considerably less danger to you there than in Christian countries like Uganda, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Colombia or even Mexico.

My uncle just returned from a visit to the United Arab Emirates, which is probably one of the safest countries in the world (And the most boring, according to my uncle.) An ex-girlfriend of mine is living in Cairo, Egypt, working as an anthropologist, and says the country is quite safe for foreigners.

So I think you paint a very unfair comparison by just saying Islamic countries are safer than Christian ones. It's just not that easy. Most Islamic countries would be very safe for both you and me. And some Christian ones would be very dangerous.

 

[Ryokan]

And yes, Islamophobia is very real, has spawned lots of insane conspiracy theories and can be very very dangerous - as evidenced in Norway last year.

 

[baron]

Proper response would depend on who you are calling an Islamophobe. If you include any person who criticises Islam then your argument is without merit and doesn't bear another word on my part or on the part of anybody who respects debate and the free exchange of ideas. If, however, you mean those who use Islam simply as a means of attacking a social, religious or ethnic group then your argument is no more contentious than one condemning racism or sexism.

I'd be interested to hear what restrictions are about to be imposed on Muslims in your country. In the UK we have no such restrictions in place or planned.

 

[zeggman]

Define lots.

Millions.

Most Islamic countries would be very safe for both you and me. And some Christian ones would be very dangerous.

Okay, I'll concede that I didn't consider Christian countries where they're still burning witches when I wrote that.

And there may be (majority) Islamic countries in which I'd be safer expressing public lack of belief in a deity than I am in the United States, or western Europe, but I wouldn't want to be the one to test the hypothesis.

 

[DC]

Proper response would depend on who you are calling an Islamophobe. If you include any person who criticises Islam then your argument is without merit and doesn't bear another word on my part or on the part of anybody who respects debate and the free exchange of ideas. If, however, you mean those who use Islam simply as a means of attacking a social, religious or ethnic group then your argument is no more contentious than one condemning racism or sexism.

I'd be interested to hear what restrictions are about to be imposed on Muslims in your country. In the UK we have no such restrictions in place or planned.

well in my country there is such a law. its perfectly fine to build church towers, but its not fine to build a minaret.

 

[Dcdrac]

I am in the UK and I am glad we do not have such crazy laws here but suspect it is only a matter of time before it is pushed for at some point in the future given the current climate.

 

[zeggman]

well in my country there is such a law. its perfectly fine to build church towers, but its not fine to build a minaret.

Just curious, is it the structure that's objectionable or the noise (church tower / bells on the hour and half hour vs minaret / prayers 5 times a day)?

 

[IndianGuessWhichKind]

I was raised in a Hindu household in the USA where the majority of population is Christian. I've been told that I'm "going to hell" for worshiping the wrong god and that Hinduism is Paganism which is sin, etc.

I grew up to become a deist/agnostic after seeing the contrast in the two religions and how people are blinded by their beliefs. I am NOT atheist because there is NO PROOF there is NOT a god but I am leery of all organized religion. There may be a higher power out there......but the Bible and the Koran and the Gita are clearly works of fiction no different from Aesop's Fables and Han's Fairy Tales.

I am no longer officially a Hindu but I still believe reincarnation is probable since I cannot imagine "not existing" and Heaven and Hell seems downright ridiculous. It makes more sense that our consciousness is recycled throughout generations than that our soul goes someplace forever. Most Christians ridicule this belief.

Americans aren't just afraid of Muslims- they are afraid of anyone who has different beliefs than the Christianity they grew up with.

 

[Ryokan]

Just curious, is it the structure that's objectionable or the noise (church tower / bells on the hour and half hour vs minaret / prayers 5 times a day)?

It was the Muslims inside it.

The Switzerland minaret-debacle is an interesting case. Not all mosques have minarets, it depends on what country and culture the mosque-attendees are from. Most Muslims in Switzerland are from Bosnia/Former Yugoslavia, who were influenced by Turkish/Ottoman culture, and hence their mosques often have minarets.

Bosnian Muslims are very secular, comparable to most European Christians. More culturally Muslim than proper believers. They're a prime example of what people are looking for when they're asking for moderate Muslims. They certainly don't make their women wear burqas, as in the propaganda used against them.

Yet these are who the anti-Islam crowd in Switzerland chose to target.

 

[DC]

Just curious, is it the structure that's objectionable or the noise (church tower / bells on the hour and half hour vs minaret / prayers 5 times a day)?

well im not entierly sure anymore, but i think calling for prayers was already outlawed. it was because of the structure, the main argument was that its not a religious building, but a political one etc and that its a middle eastern thing and doesn't belong here.

ETA: an hour ago i had to close the windows because the annoying church bells went off like every day.

 

[A'isha]

Just curious, is it the structure that's objectionable or the noise (church tower / bells on the hour and half hour vs minaret / prayers 5 times a day)?

The structure.

 

[zeggman]

It was the Muslims inside it.

The structure.

That's messed up. I know there's no swastika in those posters, but I seem to see one anyway.

I assume the percentage of Muslims in Switzerland is higher than it is in the United States, and that Dearborn demonstration shows that the hate bubbles just as high in some individuals here, but at least we have the First Amendment which makes state endorsements of such bigotry extremely unlikely.

 

[madurobob]

I was raised in a Hindu household in the USA where the majority of population is Christian. I've been told that I'm "going to hell" for worshiping the wrong god and that Hinduism is Paganism which is sin, etc.

I'm sorry to hear it. But, it is Hinduphobic for them to say that? I'm not so sure. One of the basic tenets of most religions is that it is the only correct religion and all the others are wrong. When you embrace one religion, you reject the others. I wouldn't call that Hinduphobic or Islamophobic... I'd simply call it religious.

I am NOT atheist because there is NO PROOF there is NOT a god...

I think you misunderstand what "atheist" means and make a mistake in relying on disproving a negative, but that is a subject for a different thread (several of them, actually).

 

[DC]

That's messed up. I know there's no swastika in those posters, but I seem to see one anyway.

I assume the percentage of Muslims in Switzerland is higher than it is in the United States, and that Dearborn demonstration shows that the hate bubbles just as high in some individuals here, but at least we have the First Amendment which makes state endorsements of such bigotry extremely unlikely.

dunno, we only have around 6% muslims.
and it is still unclear if the law is "constitutional" or if it actually violates freedom of religion a granted human right. We don't really have a separation of Church and state.

 

[zeggman]

dunno, we only have around 6% muslims.

Just looked it up here, Switzerland 5.7% Muslim, United States 0.8% Muslim.

I hope I don't have to eat my words if our percentage gets as high as yours.

 

[Beerina]

Not really. You may be confused due to differing defintions of "innocent civilian".

I assume that's similar to different definitions of "innocent Jews"?

One properly has a fear of religion running things -- this is why it's generally forbidden in the West. Look around at the suffering of a billion people under that yoke.