Islamic Divorce

[Puppycow]

It sure is easy for a Muslim man to get a divorce these days:

Dubai recorded 555 divorce cases among its Muslim population in 2010 and 150 of them were done by e-mail of mobile phone text messages.
. . .
Under Islamic law, a Muslim man can divorce his wife by just saying “your are divorced” three times but a woman cannot do the same.

Is there anything like alimony or child support in Sharia law?

 

[JJM 777]

I guess marriage is the motive for getting those, and polygamy is the extension of that motive.

 

[Kopji]

I believe that a Muslim woman could write into her marriage contract that she could divorce her husband the same way, if they both agreed to it.

All those rich and influential Muslim women out there could jettison their backward worthless husbands if they only thought about it ahead of time.

Why, peaceful order would be lost and society would crumble if it were any different.

whatever

[sarcasm off]

 

[A'isha]

Is there anything like alimony or child support in Sharia law?

Depends on which version of shariah. I don't know a whole lot about shariah under Sunni madh'hab, but according to a number of faqih in Shia Islam, there's no actual alimony as we understand it, but if a man divorces his wife, she can keep the Mahr (a mutually-agreed-upon amount given by the husband to the wife as a marriage gift, similar to but not exactly like a Western dowry), and during the required waiting period after a divorce before remarriage is permitted ('Iddah, which generally lasts three full menstrual cycles) the husband has to pay the wife's maintenance. It's also recommended that the husband pay an amount over and above the Mahr and the 'Iddah maintenance to the wife, to make post-marriage life easier for her (in accordance with Qur'an 2:231's admonition "When you divorce women, and they have reached their waiting-period, then either retain them in a fair manner or set them free in a fair manner").

As for child support, according to Sayyid Moustafa al-Qazwini (also a Shia faqih), if parents can't agree on a custody arrangement, the child stays with the father. If the father isn't suitable or capable to raise the child, or if the parents agree, the child stays with the mother, but in that case the father is obligated to financially support his children.

In Shia Islam, the repetition of the talaq, or divorce pronouncement, has to be done on separate occasions (as Shahid Ayatollah Murtadha Mutahhari put it, "the three words, ‘I divorce you’ can be repeated 100 times in one go and still be considered one divorce" out of the required three divorces), as well as before two witnesses, so an email or text containing those words repeated three times won't result in a valid divorce under Shia shariah.

As a side note, while women can't divorce their husbands using the above method, there are ways under shariah that a woman can initiate a divorce. And, as Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani has ruled, if a Muslim woman living in the West obtains a divorce order in a secular Western court, she has to be granted a shariah divorce regardless of whether the husband wants a divorce or not.

EDIT:

I believe that a Muslim woman could write into her marriage contract that she could divorce her husband the same way, if they both agreed to it.

This is true. According to Maqbul Hussein Rahim, "[t]he bride may, in the mahr, confer upon herself a right to divorce, or provide for the division of property in the event of divorce or any other condition to reserve for herself any right or benefit which under the shariah she would not normally enjoy." (While normally a monetary amount, the mahr can also be a promise exacted from the husband-to-be to fulfill a condition or obligation imposed by the bride-to-be. That's part of why it's not exactly like a Western dowry.)

 

[aggle-rithm]

"...and then you throw dog poop on her shoes."

 

[caniswalensis]

It sure is easy for a Muslim man to get a divorce these days:



Is there anything like alimony or child support in Sharia law?

Maybe it's the cute picture, but this is setting off my skeptic sense.

Something about the idea of simply saying it three times does not sound right to me. It is a very silly & meaningless custom if it is true. Islam has a lot of different customs, but I can usually see a certain type of logic behind them, even if I do not agree with that logic. This seems more like a child's game to me.

Can anyone confirm that this is correct?

 

[A'isha]

Maybe it's the cute picture, but this is setting off my skeptic sense.

Something about the idea of simply saying it three times does not sound right to me. It is a very silly & meaningless custom if it is true. Islam has a lot of different customs, but I can usually see a certain type of logic behind them, even if I do not agree with that logic. This seems more like a child's game to me.

Can anyone confirm that this is correct?

As I noted above, it depends on the sect and the faqih. In general, though, saying "I Divorce You" three times in a single setting makes for a binding divorce among many Sunni (maybe most Sunni, though as I also said, I don't know a whole lot about Sunni fiqh), while among Shi'ites simply repeating it three times at once does not make for a valid divorce. This difference is one of many points where Shi'ites and Sunni clash theologically, and there are a number of tafsir and other commentaries written by Shi'ites in an attempt to justify their position.

And while the "two witnesses" requirement is also usually bypassed by Sunni (something else which causes a rift between Shia and Sunni, since most Shia fuquha enforce that requirement for a valid divorce), the whole "divorce by email/text message" thing is a new one on me.

 

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

but if a man divorces his wife, she can keep the Mahr (a mutually-agreed-upon amount given by the husband to the wife as a marriage gift, similar to but not exactly like a Western dowry)

in Sunni Islam, the Mahr is explicitly defined by Muhammad in the ahadith that its purpose is as payment for the user of her vagina, so it's a "usage charge" and not really like a western dowry. Incidentally, under Sunni Islam, this is why the wife will have to give back part or all of the Mahr if she initiates (and is successful) a divorce - because the man didn't finish with "what he paid for."

and during the required waiting period after a divorce before remarriage is permitted ('Iddah, which generally lasts three full menstrual cycles)

Yes unless the female is underage or post-menopausal.

the husband has to pay the wife's maintenance. It's also recommended that the husband pay an amount over and above the Mahr and the 'Iddah maintenance to the wife, to make post-marriage life easier for her (in accordance with Qur'an 2:231's admonition "When you divorce women, and they have reached their waiting-period, then either retain them in a fair manner or set them free in a fair manner").

now now NOW!! lol! to 'make post marriage life easier for her'? Really? Is that what shi'a Islam teaches? In Sunni Islam the purpose of the Iddah is to determine whether or not the woman is pregnant, because any child/ren are property of the man. That's why it's required (generally) to be 3 menstrual cycles. So if she IS pregnant you have to support her until she's given birth, if she's not pregnant, then you can then decide whether you want to take her back or not (at any time during the iddah). Cause after the Iddah is over, if you want her back as your wife, she has to marry and have sex with someone else before you can have her back. When read in context, that's what 2:230-231 are referring to. Don't leave your wife in her iddah with your indecision whether you want her back or not.

So in Sunni Islam the iddah serves more than 1 purpose there - the guilt the wife into behaving how you want her to, and also to see if she is pregnant or not. My source is Surah Talaq & Surah Baqarah Ayah's 230-231

I'd love to know why you're claiming the iddat is to make post marriage life easier!

As for child support, according to Sayyid Moustafa al-Qazwini (also a Shia faqih), if parents can't agree on a custody arrangement, the child stays with the father. If the father isn't suitable or capable to raise the child, or if the parents agree, the child stays with the mother, but in that case the father is obligated to financially support his children.

Under Sunni Islam the child stays with the mother until seven years old, then he/she/they go to the father.

As a side note, while women can't divorce their husbands using the above method, there are ways under shariah that a woman can initiate a divorce. And, as Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani has ruled, if a Muslim woman living in the West obtains a divorce order in a secular Western court, she has to be granted a shariah divorce regardless of whether the husband wants a divorce or not.

Sure but the point is that it's a whole process for the woman to attain a divorce whereas a man can say 3 times "talaq" and they're divorced. Also men can seemingly divorce for any or no reason whereas women cannot. For example, spousal abuse isn't even enough for a woman to get divorced under Shari'a. Gotta wonder why any Islamic authority let's the west clean up after the Shari'a eh?

Maybe it's the cute picture, but this is setting off my skeptic sense.

Something about the idea of simply saying it three times does not sound right to me. It is a very silly & meaningless custom if it is true. Islam has a lot of different customs, but I can usually see a certain type of logic behind them, even if I do not agree with that logic. This seems more like a child's game to me.

Can anyone confirm that this is correct?

In the Sunni ahadith (ie. Bukhari & Muslim - these are reports of what Muhammad and the first Muslim's said and did), Muhammad used to repeat almost every action 3 times, and he used to repeat every sentence 3 times. So emulating their Uswa Hasana (best example of conduct) is why the triple divorce (talaq) is required.

 

[caniswalensis]

Antpotgo & Jigsaw,

Thank you very much for your kindly answers & explanations. It's much appreciated. Also, some great & intersting posting by you two.

Regards, Canis

 

[A'isha]

now now NOW!! lol! to 'make post marriage life easier for her'? Really? Is that what shi'a Islam teaches? In Sunni Islam the purpose of the Iddah is to determine whether or not the woman is pregnant, because any child/ren are property of the man. That's why it's required (generally) to be 3 menstrual cycles. So if she IS pregnant you have to support her until she's given birth, if she's not pregnant, then you can then decide whether you want to take her back or not (at any time during the iddah). Cause after the Iddah is over, if you want her back as your wife, she has to marry and have sex with someone else before you can have her back. When read in context, that's what 2:230-231 are referring to. Don't leave your wife in her iddah with your indecision whether you want her back or not.

So in Sunni Islam the iddah serves more than 1 purpose there - the guilt the wife into behaving how you want her to, and also to see if she is pregnant or not. My source is Surah Talaq & Surah Baqarah Ayah's 230-231

I'd love to know why you're claiming the iddat is to make post marriage life easier!

I think you misunderstood me, sorry. The recommended (though not required) extra payment to the wife to make her post-marriage life easier that's supposed to be in accordance with Qur'an 2:231 and 2:241 is entirely separate from the maintenance that's supposed to be paid during the 'Iddah, and is completely unrelated to the 'Iddah and the Mahr.

The idea is ostensibly that "set them free with fairness" means that even if the man divorces his wife, it should not be done "in an ugly manner... and demonstrating a spirit of revenge" (as Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad Hussein Tabataba'i put it). That it's a recommendation and not a requirement, he says, comes from Qur'an 2:241 "And for the divorced women (too) provision (should be made) according to usage; (this is) a duty on those who guard (against evil)."

"The proviso of piety, 'those who guard against evil', implies that it is a recommendation, not a compulsion," he wrote in Tafsir al-Mizan, but further notes when talking about the traditions, "It is reported in al-Kafi and at-Tafsir of al-Ayyashi: as-Sadiq (a.s.) was asked about a man who divorces his wife, should he make provision for her? He said: 'Yes. Does not he like to be one of the doers of good?'"

Tabataba'i implies (though never outright says), given that this verse comes after instructions about making provision for wives left behind after death (ie, widows), that this provision for divorcees should also come after death, though Sayyid Moustafa al-Qazwini says this is also a recommendation for the immediate post-marriage period, because leaving your ex-wife penniless and destitute after the divorce could be considered to go against the spirit of the admonition to "set them free with fairness." Specifically, he says "Islam recommends that the husband bestow a gift to the ex-wife in order to ease her living conditions after the divorce, even if he had paid her the full dower. Upon divorce, Islam advises the husband to compensate the former wife in some manner."

[EDIT: Muhammad Asad says of 2:241 (which he translates as "And the divorced women, too, shall have [a right to] maintenance in a goodly manner: this is a duty for all who are conscious of God.") in his Message of the Qur'an: "This obviously relates to women who are divorced without any legal fault on their part. The amount of alimony - payable unless and until they remarry - has been left unspecified since it must depend on the husband's financial circumstances and on the social conditions of the time."]

Sure but the point is that it's a whole process for the woman to attain a divorce whereas a man can say 3 times "talaq" and they're divorced. Also men can seemingly divorce for any or no reason whereas women cannot. For example, spousal abuse isn't even enough for a woman to get divorced under Shari'a. Gotta wonder why any Islamic authority let's the west clean up after the Shari'a eh?

No argument here. I've read various attempts at justifying this, but none of it (nor the various inferior methods a woman can try to obtain a divorce) can disguise the essentially misogynistic, patriarchal nature and origin of divorce in general under shariah.

In the Sunni ahadith (ie. Bukhari & Muslim - these are reports of what Muhammad and the first Muslim's said and did), Muhammad used to repeat almost every action 3 times, and he used to repeat every sentence 3 times. So emulating their Uswa Hasana (best example of conduct) is why the triple divorce (talaq) is required.

As noted above, one of the points of theological contention between Sunni and Shia is whether saying talaq three times in one sitting counts as a full, legitimate Islamic divorce, or whether talaq has to be said on three separate occasions, regardless of how many times the sentence is repeated on any given occasion.

 

[CJW]

"...and then you throw dog poop on her shoes."

 

[A'isha]

As a side note, when I got home and was able to check my main resources, I remembered I had Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi's abridged tafsir, and although he seems to be slightly controversial in his theology among some Sunni, he was still a a highly conservative Sunni faqih (he founded the main Islamist party of Pakistan, and was a big influence on al-Bana and Qutb).

He says "The husband has no right to demand anything of the dower given to the wife in consideration for the marriage or ornaments, clothes etc., given to her as gifts. It is utterly against the moral principles of Islam to ask for the return of anything given to another as a present or gift. The Holy Prophet has likened this disgraceful behaviour to the licking up of his own vomit by the dog. It is indeed very shameful on the part of a husband to keep back or demand, after the divorce, what he himself gave to his wife. As a matter of fact Islam exhorts the husband who divorces his wife to give her something at her departure. (Please see AI-Baqarah, II : 241)." [referring, of course, to the verse of the Qur'an that recommends making provision for divorcees]

He also seems to agree more with the Shia condemnation of the so-called "triple talaq" means of divorce, saying "In order to check hasty action and leave the door open for reconciliation at many stages, the right method of pronouncing divorce as taught in the Qur'an and the Traditions is that if and when it becomes inevitable, it should be pronounced only when she is not in her menses and even if a dispute arises during the monthly period, it is not right to pronounce divorce during that condition, but he should wait for her to cleanse herself and then may pronounce a single divorce, if he so likes. Then he should wait for the next monthly course and pronounce the second divorce if he so wishes after she is cleansed. Then he should wait for the next monthly course to pronounce the third and final divorce after she is cleansed. It is, however, better to wait and reconsider the matter after the first and second pronouncements, for in the case of one or two divorces, the husband retains the right to take her back as his wife before the expiry of the term, and even if the term has expired, the couple has a chance to remarry by mutual consent. But if divorce is pronounced for the third time in the third period of purity, the husband forfeits the right to take her back nor can the couple remarry.

As for those ignorant people who pronounce all the three divorces in one and the same sitting, they commit a heinous sin against the Law. The Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) has very severely denounced this practice and Hadrat `Umar used to whip the husband who pronounced three divorces at one and the same sitting."