Islam in Britain - One Year Later

[BPSCG]

A year after the London Islamist bombings, how do British Muslims feel about their country?

This exercise in ambiguity is reflected in the Pew Global Attitudes Project, which has found that Muslims in Britain hold far more negative views of the West than Islamic minorities anywhere else in Europe. A majority of Britain's estimated 1.8 million Muslims found Westerners to be "selfish, arrogant, greedy and immoral." Just over half said Westerners were violent. Only 32% of Muslims in Britain had a favorable view of Jews; the same figure for French Muslims was 71%. Across the world, the attitudes of Muslims in Britain more resemble those in radical Arab countries than those in the West.

The Pew survey echoes the results of a YouGov poll last year, which showed that 6% of British Muslims, over 100,000 individuals, believed that the 7/7 attacks had been justified. In the same poll, 24% said they were prepared to help terrorists, if needed, while 56% said they understood the reasons for the attacks. More importantly, 1% -- some 16,000 -- said they were prepared to join terrorist operations in the name of Islam. That a significant number of would-be terrorists might be present within the Muslim community in Britain is the main hypothesis of the so-called Rich Picture undercover operation launched by British intelligence in the wake of 7/7. According to intelligence sources quoted by the British press, some 8,000 persons, all "British born and bred Muslims," are under investigation as "al Qaeda sympathizers."

And:

[The broader Muslim communities in Britain] are deeply divided on matters of faith. Sunnis never set foot in Shiite mosques, and vice-versa. Salafis regard all other Muslims as heretics, and the latter repay the compliment by labeling the Salafis "deviants." In their original countries, the various sects often murder one another in the name of the rival boutiques of Islam. Shiites are not allowed to have a mosque in Cairo while Sunnis are denied that right in Tehran.

"We have more religious freedom in Britain than in any Muslim country," says Aazam Tamimi, a pro-Hamas British Islamist. "Our grievances against Britain are not religious but political." And that is the heart of the problem. Convinced that they can never agree on a common understanding of Islam, Muslim sects in Britain have sought unity based on a political program: Islam, in its broadest expression in Britain, is a political movement. It has adopted part of the anticapitalist discourse of communism, adding to it some anti-Semitic and anti-Christian themes of Nazism, and completing the mix with Third-Worldist lamentations against racism and imperialism. This Islam is an ideology masquerading as a religious faith.

Few sermons delivered at British mosques deal with theology, and none allows God more than a cameo role. Instead, they rage about Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Kashmir. They are designed to portray Muslims as victims of a great "Judeo-Crusader conspiracy" led by the U.S., with Britain, Australia, Denmark and Israel, to name but a few, acting as its minions.

 

[Mephisto]

A year after the London Islamist bombings, how do British Muslims feel about their country?
And:

Good info, BPSCG. To be frank it sounds like some fringe (usually White Supremicist) groups in the U.S. They don't like any race, nationality, or culture other than their own, they're suspicious of the government and have taken terrorist actions against the U.S. (Tim McVeigh), have a "holy book" that espouses rebellion (The Turner Diaries) and justifies ethno-centric violence against others and can even cite passages in the Bible that "proves" the White Race supreme.

(edited to add) Sorry to derail your thread, but extremists live everywhere, apparently just waiting for the chance to do harm.

 

[BPSCG]

Good info, BPSCG. To be frank it sounds like some fringe (usually White Supremicist) groups in the U.S.

Except that, as you point out, in the U.S., they are fringe groups, not large minorities.

(edited to add) Sorry to derail your thread,

No you're not.

but extremists live everywhere, apparently just waiting for the chance to do harm.

Uh, yeah, right. American Christian fundamentalists = British Islamists. Stupidest thing you've written today, but of course, the day isn't over yet, so I have high expectations for you.

Let me re-write one of the salient passages above to place them in an equivalent U.S. context:

The Pew survey echoes the results of a YouGov poll last year, which showed that 6% of U.S. Christians, over 9 million individuals, believed that the September 11 attacks had been justified. In the same poll, 24% said they were prepared to help terrorists, if needed, while 56% said they understood the reasons for the attacks. More importantly, 1% -- some 150,000 -- said they were prepared to join terrorist operations in the name of Christianity.

Yup. British Islam = American Christianty.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Except that, as you point out, in the U.S., they are fringe groups, not large minorities.
No you're not.Uh, yeah, right. American Christian fundamentalists = British Islamists. Stupidest thing you've written today, but of course, the day isn't over yet, so I have high expectations for you.

What post are you reading? Mephisto never claimed that. He claimed that they are similarly intolerant.

 

[BPSCG]

What post are you reading? Mephisto never claimed that. He claimed that they are similarly intolerant.

So what's his point in comparing a large British religious minority with a tiny American one?

His point, as he acknowledged, was to derail the thread. Which he has done.

Now, can we get back to discussing British Islam, and save the discussion of violent American fundamentalist Christians for another thread, which you are welcome to start?

 

[Mephisto]

What post are you reading? Mephisto never claimed that. He claimed that they are similarly intolerant.

Hey, you're poisoning the well, don't you know that? The two groups have nothing in common, don't try to change the subject.

 

[Darat]

Except that, as you point out, in the U.S., they are fringe groups, not large minorities.

...snip...

Figures from the last census:

...In England, 3.1 per cent of the population state their religion as Muslim (0.7 per cent in Wales), making this the most common religion after Christianity.

For other religions, 1.1 per cent in England and 0.2 per cent in Wales are Hindu, 0.7 per cent in England and 0.1 per cent in Wales are Sikh, 0.5 per cent in England and 0.1 per cent in Wales are Jewish and 0.3 per cent in England and 0.2 per cent in Wales are Buddhist....

 

[ImaginalDisc]

So what's his point in comparing a large British religious minority with a tiny American one?

His point, as he acknowledged, was to derail the thread. Which he has done.

Now, can we get back to discussing British Islam, and save the discussion of violent American fundamentalist Christians for another thread, which you are welcome to start?

Take a look at the data provided by Darat. (Hey, that's fun to say.) Even if every Muslim person in the UK is a foaming at the mouth fundamentalist, that's only 3.1% of the population.

 

[BPSCG]

Even if every Muslim person in the UK is a foaming at the mouth fundamentalist, that's only 3.1% of the population.

You can dispense with the "if" in your post by referring to the YouGov survey in the OP, which says that 24% of British Muslims (over 400,000) would be prepared to help terrorists.

Frankly, I find the second quote in the OP more interesting, as the first one was widely discussed here when the YouGov poll came out last year. I knew the various Muslim sects strongly dispute each others' versions of theology, but wasn't aware that it was so extreme that they won't even set foot in each others' mosques, and call each other heretics and deviants.

The claim that British Islam is "ideology masquerading as religious faith" is interesting. Never thought about it that way before. Up to now, I'd considered Islam to be a religion whose goal was political power; this says Islam is a bunch of sects who can't agree on anything other than their political grievances, that those grievances against the west unite them far more than their religion.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

You can dispense with the "if" in your post by referring to the YouGov survey in the OP, which says that 24% of British Muslims (over 400,000) would be prepared to help terrorists.

Even if your assertion is correct, 24% of 3.1% is only 0.74%. That's less than one percent. That is by defintion a tiny minority.

 

[Apollyon]

It's odd how when the actual numbers don't look pretty people begin citing percentages instead.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

It's odd how when the actual numbers don't look pretty people begin citing percentages instead.

It's funny how when a tiny minority is a bunch of whackos, alarmists and polticial hacks try to drag out the numbers.

 

[Apollyon]

It's funny how when a tiny minority is a bunch of whackos, alarmists and polticial hacks try to drag out the numbers.

Hmmm. It seems in the OP that both were cited, which seems a fair method. Suddenly the argument became converted to only percentages. A ploy by "alarmists and political hacks"? That can be left up to the reader to decide, eh?

 

[BPSCG]

From an interview with the Melanie Phillips, author of Londonistan:

Emerson: Is it possible to roll back Islamic fundamentalist influence in London or Great Britain or is the demographic presence too overwhelming? And if not possible to reverse Islamist influence, what should be the policies of the UK government?
Phillips: The great question! The short answer is — I don’t know; but we have got to try, otherwise it’s all over. What we should be doing is halting the tide of mass (and largely illegal) immigration that is changing the face of Britain. We should abolish the doctrine of multiculturalism that is destroying British identity and reassert instead our overarching values as a democratic nation rooted in the particulars of history, religion, laws, culture, customs and traditions — a nation which values and respects all minorities, but expects them to subscribe to that overarching national identity. And we should stopthe preaching and teaching of sedition, incitement to hatred and violence and war against the west that is presently continuing unchecked in mosques and madrassahs, on caampus, in youth clubs and in prisons and either prosecute the perpetrators or throw them out of the country. All this can be done. The Brititsh government has so far flinched from doing it.
Emerson: Do any authentically moderate Islamic organizations or leaders exist?
Phillips: No. There ARE truly moderate British Muslims, but they are a frightened and powerless minority within a minority, and to date they have no representative institutions.

 

[Phrost]

Islam as an anti-capitalist political ideology is cause for concern. The fact that many Muslims see themselves as belonging to a "nation" not based on borders but their ideology instead, is just simply frightening.

 

[Dcdrac]

Since when has Melanie Phillps been an unbiased reporter on anything, she is one of the biggest Anti MMR jab proponents over here and actively campaign against it, her judgement on anything cannot be considered as anything other than unsound, she is an idealogue and it blinds what she writes and puts forward.

Prior to 9/11 my knowledge of islam was limited to they pray five times a day and towards Mecca. I made an appointment with one of the imams at Regents Park mosque and we talked for about three hours, i asked if he cold support what the hijackers had done, he said no becasue it was the murder of innocents which is considered wrong in Islam.

And bear in mind one of the victims og 7/7 here in London was a muslim.

 

[BPSCG]

Since when has Melanie Phillps been an unbiased reporter on anything, she is one of the biggest Anti MMR jab proponents over here

This is sort of a reverse "appeal to authority," where someone's alleged incompetence in one field is "proved" by her incompetence in another, unrelated field.

Richard Wagner was an anti-semite; therefore he was a bad composer.

Isaac Newton believed in alchemy; therefore he was an incompetent mathematician and physicist.

Ulysses S. Grant was a musical ignoramus; therefore he was a bad general.

and actively campaign against it, her judgement on anything cannot be considered as anything other than unsound, she is an idealogue and it blinds what she writes and puts forward.

Okay, then please tell me if this statement of hers from the above post...

There ARE truly moderate British Muslims, but they are a frightened and powerless minority within a minority, and to date they have no representative institutions.

...is wrong.

 

[Cleon]

Even if every Muslim person in the UK is a foaming at the mouth fundamentalist, that's only 3.1% of the population.

You can dispense with the "if" in your post by referring to the YouGov survey in the OP, which says that 24% of British Muslims (over 400,000) would be prepared to help terrorists.

Odd. Last time I took a math class, "every Muslim person" would be 100% of Muslims.

24% is, again, last time I checked, less than 100%--less than 1/4 of 100%, I believe.

So yes, ID can dispense with the "if" if he has no desire to be remotely accurate and wants to generalize the attitudes of the majority by the reported desires of the minority. However, knowing ID, I rather doubt he'd be the sort of person to do that.

This is, of course, assuming that every Muslim who "would be prepared to help terrorists" is a "foaming at the mouth fundamentalist"--which is by no means true. In addition, of course, what's meant by "helping terrorists" is not exactly specified in the article--I kinda doubt the question asked was "would you help a terrorist?"

 

[Dcdrac]

Oh and do not forget that prior to 7/7 in London we had the bomb attacks carried out by David Copeland a one time member of the BNP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/781755.stm

Also a follower of an inflexible intolerant creed such as the false version of islam that the 7/7 bombers subscribed to.

 

[Dcdrac]

This is sort of a reverse "appeal to authority," where someone's alleged incompetence in one field is "proved" by her incompetence in another, unrelated field.

Richard Wagner was an anti-semite; therefore he was a bad composer.

Isaac Newton believed in alchemy; therefore he was an incompetent mathematician and physicist.

Ulysses S. Grant was a musical ignoramus; therefore he was a bad general.

Okay, then please tell me if this statement of hers from the above post......is wrong.

I have seen her parade her nonesens across the national press for twenty years Phillips does not let facts deflect her at all.