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Is this a Non Sequiter?

komencanto

Thinker
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Messages
168
From: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,7839884%5E7583,00.html

"The emotional costs of having sex at a young age get very little air play in our progressive, human rights-laden culture. A recent US study found that sexually active girls are more than three times more likely to suffer depression than girls who are not sexually active. They are also nearly three times more likely to attempt suicide than those girls not having sex. Using data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Adolescent Health, the Heritage Centre for Data Analysis controlled for race, gender, age and family income, and found teenage depression was not so much linked to socio-economic status as to whether they were having sex. Among the girls having sex, most regretted their early sexual experiences."

Who thinks we´ll find that early sex and those other negatives things are common symptoms of something else, rather than a cause and effect.

And what about:
"Our sexually active teenagers have poor knowledge of sexually transmitted diseases."

I don´t know where she got that from, but evidently they weren´t listening to the Sex Ed classes I did in Australia last year in year 10 (15 years of age ).
 
Nah, it's a causation vs. correlation fallacy. The way to determine causation would be to follow a group of teenagers for several years, before they became sexually active, and test them for depression on a regular basis.

That said, there are obvious negative effects to any failed relationship, likely more so if it was a sexual relationship. But to suggest that sex itself is "bad" for teenagers is kinda ridiculous.
 
Now, skeptics and increduloids, I would like to say at this point that there is nothing up my sleeve, that I do not read the Australian, and that I have not clicked the above link.

I'm now going to concentrate... I'm getting a "B"... Butthead? No, but close... Bettina Arndt!

Would that be the author of the above piece of crap by any chance?

If I'm right, do I get my mil?
 
Mr Manifesto said:
Now, skeptics and increduloids, I would like to say at this point that there is nothing up my sleeve, that I do not read the Australian, and that I have not clicked the above link.

I'm now going to concentrate... I'm getting a "B"... Butthead? No, but close... Bettina Arndt!

Would that be the author of the above piece of crap by any chance?

If I'm right, do I get my mil?

I was rooting for you, but unfortunatly you are wrong. The author's name is Janet Albrechtsen, familiar with her?
 
Tony said:


I was rooting for you, but unfortunatly you are wrong. The author's name is Janet Albrechtsen, familiar with her?

Rats.

Albrechtsen is familiar, but I'm not sure why. I'm going to google for her now.
 
Ah, ha! I now know why she is familiar. Media Watch in Australia did a story on her, where she fudged facts to support a case that Muslims rape white women as part of a rite of passage. This was during an episode in which several women were packed-raped by Muslims who made racial slurs against them. No excusing this behaviour, and they should be made to feel the full force of the law. However, it is not right to tar all Islam with the same brush, nor is it right to invent facts to present some case that Islam looks kindly on this sort of thing.

More on Albrechtsen

She also has a problem with gay marriage, universities, the usual issues that the right-wing-for-the-sake-of-being-right-wing like to trot out in Australian newspapers.
 
And she quotes from Heritage Centre for Data Analysis. I've linked to the report she is likely to have quoted from. The Heritage foundation is a conservative think-tank, and unlikely to examine data of any kind without a certain amount of conservative bias, especially since this organisation has as its heroes Ronnie Raygun, Ironfist Thatcher and Sean Hannity.
 
Yes, she has long been discredited in my mind for abuse of data in that article. She posts right wing opinions often but doesn´t back them up very well I don´t think, usually backing her case with dodgy evidence such as this.

Media watch is quite good, but unfortunately it tends to get bogged down on silly things and doesn´t expose anything interesting.
 
komencanto said:
Yes, she has long been discredited in my mind for abuse of data in that article. She posts right wing opinions often but doesn´t back them up very well I don´t think, usually backing her case with dodgy evidence such as this.

Media watch is quite good, but unfortunately it tends to get bogged down on silly things and doesn´t expose anything interesting.

Yes, I have to say the show has become very ordinary since Richard Ackland (and Stuart Littlemore, but he couldn't do the show forever) left the scene. Paul Barry had his moments, but he tended to get too bogged down in tossy interviews with pundits and plaudits that no-one gave a God-damn about.

David Marr, I suppose, has his moments too, but he's so worried that people will accuse him of bias that he spends time nit-picking the Sydney Morning Herald and the ABC when he should be going after the complete meat heads. Or maybe he's afraid of losing his job, too. McDonald opened an ugly can of worms when he sacked Barry.
 
Here are next days replies to that article. I´m glad to see I´m not the only one who thought it was bull =)


Sexing up the data on teenage girls
Janet Albrechtsen's article (Opinion, 12/11) cannot go unanswered by a statistician. We are told a US study found that sexually active teenage girls are more likely to suffer depression, and to attempt suicide, than girls who are not sexually active.

Albrechtsen portrays the study as hard evidence that sexual activity causes depression and suicide. This conclusion cannot be drawn from the data. Correlation is not causation. We may as well conclude that depression causes sexual activity; or that goannas prevent overpopulation, because smaller towns tend to contain more goannas. There is a host of alternative explanations for the US data.

A sub-group of teenagers might have higher rates of sexual activity and depression, giving rise to a correlation, without sexual activity causing depression in any individual. The data are based on survey responses, and young people who are reticent about admitting to sexual adventure on the questionnaire might also deny having suicidal thoughts; and so on.

The authors of the report cited by Albrechtsen were circumspect enough to acknowledge alternative explanations, and to investigate some of them. A lot of the rhetorical strength of Albrechtsen's argument rests on invoking the report as "evidence", with the implication that it is objective and authoritative.

The source of the report is the Heritage Foundation, described on its website as "a think-tank whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies".

As far as we know, this report has not passed through scientific peer review. It does not deserve to be represented as objective evidence.
Adrian Baddeley
Professor of Statistics
University of Western Australia

Janet Albrechtsen's argument about the sexualising of girls is frustratingly short on statistics, factually inaccurate and fails to make a compelling argument for reaching her conclusion: that the high rate of teenage sexual activity in Australia can be put down to the influence of indulgent boomer parents and sex educators.

Albrechtsen cites statistics published by The Medical Journal of Australia that Australia has the sixth-highest rate of teenage pregnancy among OECD countries, along with a high rate of teen abortions and poor knowledge of sexually transmitted disease. She fails to mention that the same article also points out that "a teenage mother in Australia is more likely to be . . . living in an area of socio-economic disadvantage", and that "young Aboriginal girls are over-represented among teenagers giving birth in Australia".

Yet the type of parenting which Albrechtsen blames, the "philosophy of . . . ballet at age three, birthday parties for 50 friends plus DJ at age seven, mobile phones at age nine, sex at age 15", is clearly that of the privileged middle class.

As a secondary school teacher, teaching health education to Year 10, I take issue with Albrechtsen's claim that "sex educators argue that abstinence can only be taught as one option, not the preferred one". My primary source of curriculum support materials is a book published by the WA Department of Health which lists among its aims "reflecting a philosophy where abstinence from sexual activity for school-aged students is the key focus".

After spending some time discussing relationships, self-esteem and assertiveness – how to say no – my class moved on to gathering information about contraception and sexually transmitted infections. One of my female students actually complained, "Why are you telling us everything bad about sex? Can't we talk about how good it is?"

Albrechtsen makes no reference to the part played by advertising and consumerism in the sexualisation of young girls. I suggest that she might look in that direction before placing the blame on parents and teachers.
Vivien Encel
Hilton, WA

Not a bad trick of Janet Albrechtsen to blame young girls' sexual precocity on a liberalism that otherwise produces such Aquarian phenomena as the John Howard Government.

Even trickier was making her case without mentioning the advertising industry and its relentless barrage of "be sexy" messages to girls as young as six or seven.

In a free market Janet's "abstinence" has to compete with a lot more seductive products. Stop whingeing.
Lynn Hayward
Weegena, Tas

It is a shame to see after all these years of feminism that management of teenage sexuality is still seen by some as a question of girls saying no.

The interesting thing is not that a group of 15-year olds want to have their pubic hair waxed off – surely a fairly innocent way to spend pocket money – but that adult women with real jobs and relationships with other adults want to do it, and that their partners find it attractive.

Disease and unplanned pregnancies are not the sole preserve of the young and ill-informed, though they are the same boring scare tactics that my parents' generation used on their teenagers to keep them in line. Did any of us ever really believe it would happen to us?

Pressure from peer groups and the desire to rebel play a part in early sexual activity. Management of those things should help us guide teenagers towards making healthy and informed decisions about which they will feel comfortable in future.

There are all sorts of ways for parents to subtly guide their children's choices – an outright ban on the desperately attractive is one sure way to make it even more irresistible.

Making girls the gatekeeper and offering sexual activity as one more area for rebellion is surely not the best or only answer to this serious issue.
Deborah Scott
St Lucia, Qld

Janet Albrechtsen quoted a dubious sounding US study which says sexually active girls are more than three times more likely to suffer depression than girls who are not sexually active and nearly three times more likely to attempt suicide than those girls not having sex.

Without any need for a study, I know damn well that Aussie blokes are three times more likely to be depressed if they're not sexually active. Not sure what that means.
Shaun Robson
Dingley, Vic
 
Some quite good points raised there. The 'Baby Boomers' argument was tired ten or fifteen years ago, when that 'First Stone' author/retard was trying to use it to explain why a university student might take a professor to court for groping her arse. Not because the professor's actions were illegal or anything, it's just the overprotective liberalism promoted by Baby Boomers.

So how liberal are these Baby Boomers? They're certainly liberal with their definition of where Australia's borders begin, it was this generation that cuts islands out of Australia's migration zone every time a group of refugees look like they might land on her shores. Last lot turned away were Turkish Kurds for f***s sake: hardly likely not to be approved for refugee status.

The same liberals also refuse to recognise homosexual marriage. And they also get their panties in a twist when the suggestion of a trial heroin shooting gallery- y'know, just to see if maybe it might work in the face of a failing drug abstinence policy- rears its ugly head.

One strange bunch of liberals, them Baby Boomers.
 

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