Is there no problem of evil or suffering?

The idea

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T
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Suppose that there is a God, but that God doesn't think of people as being God's children.

Given such a God, is there no problem of evil or suffering?

Compared to a diseased squirrel, a human being might seem to have the mental capacities of a god. If a particular human being doesn't go to the trouble of helping diseased squirrels, can we conclude that the human being either lacks the ability to help or lacks the desire to be good?
 
The idea said:
Suppose that there is a God, but that God doesn't think of people as being God's children.

Given such a God, is there no problem of evil or suffering?

Compared to a diseased squirrel, a human being might seem to have the mental capacities of a god. If a particular human being doesn't go to the trouble of helping diseased squirrels, can we conclude that the human being either lacks the ability to help or lacks the desire to be good?
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Or supposing there is a God and God is a small ordinary pebble on a beach in New Caledonia. It would be unreasonable to expect a pebble to help mankind with it's problems wouldn't it? A pebble can do nothing but lie there on the beach and maybe get chucked now and then. Ergo - no problem of evil!

Well as I said it is a game of "guess which God I am talking about". You could mean just about anything by the word "God". The problem of evil relates to the version of God that is proposed by the Christian and Jewish religions (Islam also has its own version of this problem).

The whole idea of Christianity is that God loves humanity, lose this property and you are talking about some other God.

So why don't you start off by describing the God that you are talking about in some detail? Then there can be a debate.
 
Would it be fair to say that, in order for the problem of evil to apply, the god in question must possess the following three attributes?
  • all-knowing
  • all-powerful
  • all-loving

The PoE, then, seems to be mainly a problem with Christianity and probably other montheistic religions, since they generally assign these attributes to their God. I've always thought that if one must believe in gods, a pantheon of powerful but flawed deities fits better with the world we actually observe.

The response to the PoE by believers usually seems to be along the lines of "This is the best of all possible worlds that still allows free will." Of course you can offer a counterxample -- "did that tsunami really accomplish anything?" or "was it really necessary to kill all those firstborn children?" -- but it'll always come down to "God works in mysterious ways. It's all part of His plan. Who are you to question it?"
 
The idea said:
Suppose that there is a God, but that God doesn't think of people as being God's children.

Given such a God, is there no problem of evil or suffering?

Compared to a diseased squirrel, a human being might seem to have the mental capacities of a god. If a particular human being doesn't go to the trouble of helping diseased squirrels, can we conclude that the human being either lacks the ability to help or lacks the desire to be good?
Click to expand...
You've basically solved the Problem of Evil in the easiest possible way: by denying God is omnibenvolent.

I agree, omnibenevolence is not a necessary property for a being call itself God, but I dont know how your average garden-variety theist will feel about that.
 
Tex said:
The response to the PoE by believers usually seems to be along the lines of "This is the best of all possible worlds that still allows free will."
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I'm willing to bet Heaven is a better possible world than this place, does this mean there is no freewill in Heaven?
 
I don't know why Christian's don't just back down and say God is the "most" good but still all-powerful and all-knowing. It's not that hard to look in the bible and see God breaking the "Though shalt not kill" commandment.
 
Re: Re: Is there no problem of evil or suffering?

Yahweh said:
You've basically solved the Problem of Evil in the easiest possible way: by denying God is omnibenvolent.

I agree, omnibenevolence is not a necessary property for a being call itself God, but I dont know how your average garden-variety theist will feel about that.
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Well no, he hasn't solved the problem of evil since the problem of evil concerns the contradiction between suffering and omnibenevolence. All he has done is point out the bleeding obvious that if one part of the contradiction was false then there would be no contradiction.

Does Idea seriously think that none of the theologists considering this problem across the centuries had thought of this option? But since omnibenevolence is considered one of the most important characteristics that defines God, perhaps the most important characteristic then Ideas solution to the problem of evil is the same as mine. There is no God.
 
This is a bit like removing the restirction of crossing each bridge but once in the Seven Bridges of Koenigsberg.
 
What if the Big Bang was God's expiration? What if there was a Primal Cause, but it dies when it Causes? Then we have a created Universe, but no living God.

Weird, huh?
 
Marquis de Carabas said:
This is a bit like removing the restirction of crossing each bridge but once in the Seven Bridges of Koenigsberg.
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Exactly - you can solve any problem by changing the problem.
 
zaayrdragon said:
What if the Big Bang was God's expiration? What if there was a Primal Cause, but it dies when it Causes? Then we have a created Universe, but no living God.

Weird, huh?
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Wow. Like totally, man.

[puff]
[puff]
[pass]
 
Yahweh said:
I'm willing to bet Heaven is a better possible world than this place, does this mean there is no freewill in Heaven?
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Maybe not. In a common believers' version of Heaven, there is no mourning of one's friends & family in Hell; this sounds to me like freewill has been tampered with. But to continue as Believer's Advocate, perhaps their argument might be "Yes, Heaven is better, and indeed offers freewill, but one must first live a life on Earth. So taken as a whole, Heaven + Earth is still the best possible existence and therefore consistent with an omnibenevolent God."
 
Ossai said:
So you run away from A solution to the problem of evil or suffering and start a new thread with the same premise because you couldn’t answer the basic points put forth in the other one.
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If a discussion of God (a general concept) gets turned into an argument about a particular notion of God that I have no desire to discuss, then the obvious remedy is to start again and specify that this is not to be a discussion of the "parent figure" notion of God.
 
Marquis de Carabas said:
Wow. Like totally, man.

[puff]
[puff]
[pass]
Click to expand...

And on the seventh day, God rested and saw that all his creation was good... except:

{GOD} "Oh my me... I've gone and left pot everywhere. S***! I really shouldn't have smoked that joint on the fifth day (although that platypus sure is funny!). Now they think they are supposed to *use* it! *sigh* Now I gotta create Republicans!"

Bill Hicks, RIP.
 
The idea said:
If a discussion of God (a general concept) gets turned into an argument about a particular notion of God that I have no desire to discuss, then the obvious remedy is to start again and specify that this is not to be a discussion of the "parent figure" notion of God.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, the problem of evil is about a particular notion of God. Remove the notion, and you're no longer discussing the problem of evil.
 
Re: Re: Is there no problem of evil or suffering?

Robin said:
Well as I said it is a game of "guess which God I am talking about". You could mean just about anything by the word "God".
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Maybe "God" means "The million dollar prize money being held to pay anyone who wins the paranormal challenge." Then if you are not a theist ....

Robin said:
So why don't you start off by describing the God that you are talking about in some detail? Then there can be a debate.
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If there is no God, then there is no God to talk about. If there is a God, then there is little or no reliable information available about God. If you want detail, I will have to write fiction.
 
Re: Re: Re: Is there no problem of evil or suffering?

The idea said:
If there is no God, then there is no God to talk about. If there is a God, then there is little or no reliable information available about God. If you want detail, I will have to write fiction.
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So in other words there is no problem of evil because we have little or no reliable evidence about God.

Quite.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is there no problem of evil or suffering?

Robin said:
So in other words there is no problem of evil because we have little or no reliable evidence about God.

Quite.
Click to expand...

Put more directly, what's the point of the OP?

I have more wondered but have failed to produce an argument. Is not an all knowing, omnibenevolent but not all powerful god an inherent contradiction?

Can one be all knowing but powerless?

I suppose I can conceive of the pebble on New Caledonia that is all knowing but having no power.
 
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