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Is there any value in a "community"

jj

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Oct 11, 2001
Messages
21,382
Ok, I seem to be a voice in the wilderness here.

I personally conclude that JREF needs a community of small folk, so to speak, as well as superstars, in order to succeed in its stated goals.

The question is:

Do you think JREF needs grassroots support. Yes or No.

Feel free to say why if you want.
 
Yes, I think the JREF needs the 'little people' to succeed in its mission.

I haven't been around this site that long. There are numerous areas in which I am not an expert, nor am I knowledgable. I'm sure the same holds true for everyone. ;) There are things I'm able to easily debunk, either based on my personal knowledge base and/or experiences or ability to access that information (given knowledge and spare time). However there are numerous things I wouldn't be as apt at doing.

Having that support allows for people to best address it. I haven't been around here long, so I'll use the Coghill thread/claim as an example. I'm certainly not an expert in that area. I have some very basic understandings of the principles involved, but it's not an area I'd consider myself well-versed in. Now, like most people, I could spend considerable time and effort reading up and countering various arguments. However...truthfully, I don't care enough to do so. I looked into it enough to not be particularly impressed, but I wasn't motivated enough to really 'get involved' (other than posting my opinions on the infant thing). Anyway I don't want to get too specific because I'm merely using it to make a point. Several people in the forum ARE well-versed in those areas and/or have the interest and time to do the reading and look at it in-depth and offer the counters.

As the discussion continues (for any of interest to keep reading it) others can learn more.

To me, that's the value. I don't have the time, effort, energy or even inclination to become an expert in everything I'd need to be to successfully address every whacko psuedo-science or paranormal or woo woo thing. And there's lots of 'em. And they do considerable harm. I DO have an interest though in exposing that junk because of the considerable harm it does in so many ways.

No one person is capable of doing that though. And even more importantly, even people well educated or experts in various areas can be absolutely and utterly wrong. That's the additional benefit of a community. Even though everyone won't be as well versed in every subject...enough will to cross-check the work, or point out flaws or weaknesses or flat out errors.

I read the JREF page for probably at least two years before ever finding the forums. I don't even recall what led me to the JREF page originally, other than it was probably the million dollar challenge. I've used that to counter arguments on another board from very sincere people who absolutely 100% believe in various television 'psychics'. It's the ultimate trump card. If it's true...why don't they prove it? You can't say it's not about the money, television psychics are well paid. You can't say they can't perform on demand, when they do so on a regular basis on television.

As much as I learned reading the JREF site, it doesn't compare to things I've learned and read since joining the community. Sure there's a lot of 'fluff' as well, and I know there's a big issue with that at the moment and I'm not trying to dredge it up. However. I have learned a tremendous amount just by participating in this community for a short period of time. I've even recently purchased some books by Martin Gardner...which I may have missed otherwise (much to my loss).

Whatever the JREF community really is, or really isn't...is a matter of personal perspective. However the forum community as I've experienced it has been an invaluable resource in information and getting involved.

What's the real benefit? Every person who reads here and walks away knowing something they didn't before, has that knowledge to present the next time someone mentions these woo-woos. On a highly personal level they can tell the person, "No, that's not true...and here's why."

You could demonstrate absolute proof of ...whatever...to a room full of people, and even so some, maybe many will still cling to their beliefs. Maybe because they want to, or they have personal investment. Maybe because they don't want to feel a fool. Maybe because hope sells...whatever.

But if even one additional person listens, and finds out more for themselves, then that's one more person to say "No, that's not true, and here's why!"

That counters the harm.

Do I think that the JREF needs grassroots support? I think we all need it. I think it has a tremendous potential for good, to encourage people to arm themselves with information. ESPECIALLY if a skeptic counters their beliefs, and the person challenged being skeptical themselves goes to learn more. You can't ask for more than that. That's the whole point! Go...and learn more.

Anyway, long post and I'm still new, but I think its absolutely essential. I don't think it is just the JREF that needs it. I need it. I think we all do.
 
I think so, because as has been stated, the community forum is one of the most popular here.

In the end, I think though, it all comes down to what the owners of the board want, and who they want to attract. Just like marketing any product or service, which audience is this board going after? If they want only skeptics who talk about nothing but designing protocols for the challenge, that's fine. There are many trade journals written specifically for a small group of people (I remember reading a journal for vending machine operators - it certainly didn't have the circulation of a Reader's Digest, but there are those who find information like that necessary). However, I think most people here would leave if it came to that. If they want to attract a large number of people, including laymen, and..."convert" is too strong a word, but educate people in the ways and methods of critical thinking and skepticism, then keep a community forum.

In racing terms, Formula 1 goes after the "champagne and caviar" crowd, while NASCAR goes after the "beer and hotdog" crowd. Champ Car is more in the middle - micro brew and T-bone steak. Which type of audience does the JREF want? Strictly Ph.D? Or a mix of laymen and academics? That will go a long way in determining what kind of forum this should be.
 
That's a rather unsatisfying response, isn't it?

Perhaps there is a lesson here, in fact a lot of the people don't read this part of the forum, perchance? :mad:

And 3 people think I ought to go away. Maybe I should just take their advice, I dunno.
 
You should stay.

This community serves a purpose for true believers and skeptics alike. We can "save" each other from the "evils" of our respective stance. We can hash these things out and hurl massive fireballs of rage at each other. On the OT forums, we can shoot the sh!t all friendly like.

I think we need just about everyone. Excepting the p0rn spambots most of all. No one needs that.
 
We can "save" each other from the "evils" of our respective stance.

I don't know what this really means.

I think the community does need help from "the little people". Is it not donations that keep the JREF alive?
 
thaiboxerken said:
We can "save" each other from the "evils" of our respective stance.

I don't know what this really means.


Some of us skeptics want to try and bring the true believers to a more critical standpoint, while the believers would like the skeptics to be less critical and embrace their "woo".

I was trying to be middle of the fence and not insitgate the woo'ers.
 
We are all of us, every last one, "little" people. Even the superstars.
 
Zep said:
We are all of us, every last one, "little" people. Even the superstars.

Except Mr. Randi himself. I felt like a twelve year old girl when I saw he posted in a thread I had posted in. It wasn't a response to me, it was just like, "Wow! It's him!"
 
jj, I am sorry--I think it is me, but I didn't vote because I thought the phrasing was ambiguous. As for what I think...here's an excerpt from something I have been writing...
Regarding the skeptical community... If I want to surpass the limits of my eyesight, I can use a telescope or microscope. To surpass the limits of my hearing, microphones of all sorts have been devised. Bomb-sniffing devices go well beyond my sense of smell or taste, and scales exist which are much more sensitive than my sense of touch. But what can I do to increase the capacity of my thinking? What device allows me to multiply my thoughts beyond my own simple level? Ah...the skeptical community (yes, the scientific community and the scientific method, but I am speaking more broadly here). I can come here, post what looks like a good idea in the morning, and by evening know not only that it is wrong, but exactly why it is wrong, and what I can do to fix it. My own narrow expertise is shored up by the expertise of others. The skeptical community is the most powerful tool I know of to surpass the limits of my own thinking.
 
LostAngeles said:

Except Mr. Randi himself. I felt like a twelve year old girl when I saw he posted in a thread I had posted in. It wasn't a response to me, it was just like, "Wow! It's him!"
I've never met him personally, but I imagine Mr Randi has his own set of foibles and prejudices and limitations, just like all of us do. And at his age, he's certainly got that "old codger's" irrascibility in spades!

Was it Proust who suggested that everyone feels like they are the only ones who are confused and uncertain in their own lives?
 
Zep said:
*snip*
Was it Proust who suggested that everyone feels like they are the only ones who are confused and uncertain in their own lives?
Perhaps, but comedian Larry Miller said something similar - okay, Miller's not as profound as Proust, but he's funnier! So Miller says something to the effect of, "We go around saying to each other, I'm......lost. I haven't got a clue what's going on. Oh? You don't either? I thought I was the only one. I look around, and everyone but me seems to have everything together."

Sometimes it's nice to know you're not alone.
 
The community aspect of this forum is vital to the JREF.

How incredibly short sighted to insult and delete the posts of the JREF's greatest supporters.

I feel embarrassed for Randi that Hal has been able to convince him that 95 to 97% of Randi's forum does not support the JREF's mission. The plan to purge shows a complete lack of critical thinking.
 

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