Is There an Egyptologist in the House?

Wowbagger

The Infinitely Prolonged
Wowbagger
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
15,660
Location
Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
I am about put on a presentation about how humans managed to build the Great Pyramid of Giza (aka Khufu’s Pyramid) 4000 years ago, as opposed to aliens. I have a few questions I wanted to run by someone who knows about these things. My own Internet research only goes so far, and is full of potential misinformation that could be hard to sort through without some sort of consultation.

Here are four questions and statements I would like some clarity on, so far:

It is my understanding that there was no complete model for how The Great Pyramid was constructed until around the 1990s or so? There certainly were theories before then, but each had issues to resolve until around that time, near as I can tell?

I once heard on some TV show that Hemiunu, the architect of the Great Pyramid, was distraught over cracks appearing in the stone ceiling above the King's Chamber. (Which since had "tell-tale" cement strips placed over them, to see if they might get any worse.) But, I can't find a good reference about that anecdote. Is there actual evidence about that?

What are your thoughts on the Internal Ramp Hypothesis? I heard that the latest results from muon tomography seem to be consistent with that theory: Enough to make even Zahi Hawass go "eh, maybe". And, in particular, it points to a possible fact that the top step of the Grand Gallery might have been worn away during its construction, which Dr. Hawass originally doubted. I wouldn't mind a bit of a debate over these statements.

I recently came across someone who claimed that the stones were floated up the sides of the pyramid via water channels built into them, that were later taken down. I have nagging doubts about the plausibility of this (despite the confidence of the person), but I don't know enough about pyramid construction to properly debunk it, assuming there is anything wrong with that idea to begin with.

And, I might have a few more questions in the near future.
 
Norman Alexander said:
"Floated up the side of the pyramid"?? How exactly would he expect that to work? Does he think the Egyptians made a ramp of sloping water??
Click to expand...
I have seen some recent suggestions that they designed a hydraulic lift. If you look around you can find some stuff on that, with the usual warning to be a bit skeptical. There's some pretty good evidence, I think, that water levels at that time were different, and of canals nearer to the pyramids, to facilitate getting the stones to the site. What they did afterwards is more of a guess. There's a fair amount of evidence of more ordinary ramps, especially on the later pyramids, which also used smaller stones, and the theory of hydraulic lifts has some loose ends. But it appears at least possible that the first "step" pyramid used hydraulics, a technology that was familiar to the ancient Egyptians.

Anyway, It's fun to browse the web for everything from interesting possibilities to the wildest ramblings of the perennial parade of pyramidiots.

note: hit the button before finished, so this is an edit, if I remember to hit the Save button this time instead of the Cancel button like last time!
 
Last edited:
Its a mix. I've gone with the direct drag and lift for the first tiers as they incorporated a portion of the ridge line into the structure. Then straight ramps that probably went up to 20 degrees or more, then another switch to a direct drawing up the side of pyramid. Forth, in the upper tiers with lighter stone using a shadoof style lifting 'machines'. Using water, they'd have to get the water up hill and then solve the valve pressure problem. Given the lack of practical evidence the question of how it was done will probably never be answered unless we are lucky enough to find the tomb of an artisan/engineer, 'supervisor of the side' of a pyramid whose tomb shows scenes or has descriptions of the construction.
 
Hans said:
Given the lack of practical evidence the question of how it was done will probably never be answered unless we are lucky enough to find the tomb of an artisan/engineer, 'supervisor of the side' of a pyramid whose tomb shows scenes or has descriptions of the construction.
Click to expand...
I thought they had found inscriptions of a ramp in the Giza builders' cemetery.
 
Norman Alexander said:
"Floated up the side of the pyramid"?? How exactly would he expect that to work? Does he think the Egyptians made a ramp of sloping water??
Click to expand...
A system of locks I would imagine, but I'm not aware of any evidence that they had such technology. Although a canal (temporary or otherwise) for transportation of the stones from the quarry to the construction site makes a lot of sense to me.
 
Would it be acceptable as an explanation if the spacefaring civilization that build the pyramids were genetically human?
 
If you're putting on a presentation on a topic that you aren't an expert on, it would probably be a good idea to tell everyone that right at the beginning of the presentation. Just be upfront about how much you know about it, how it is that you came by that knowledge, and so on. That way you can't be accused of being a phoney. In the worst case, there may be someone there who knows more about it than you do, or about particular aspects of it, or even people who think they know a lot about it because of some book they read that you don't know about, or things like that.
 
Puppycow said:
A system of locks I would imagine, but I'm not aware of any evidence that they had such technology. Although a canal (temporary or otherwise) for transportation of the stones from the quarry to the construction site makes a lot of sense to me.
Click to expand...
It is long known they had exactly that. Also, the Nile ran a lot closer to Giza in those days - geologically confirmed.
 
Hans said:
I think you might mean the 4,500-year-old ramp in the Hatnub quarry?
Click to expand...
That's the one I've heard about. But one can sort of guess that if ramps were used and found effective at one end, they might have at the other too.

I don't know the answer to this, but at the Pyramid end of things, is there much at all describing the construction? It seems as if maybe this was not considered a proper subject to depict.
 
I might be conflating the discovery of remains of a ramp at Giza and the builder's inscriptions in the Great Pyramid and the builder's inscriptions in the builder's cemetery of amounts of beer and bread fed to the workers.
 
Norman Alexander said:
"Floated up the side of the pyramid"?? How exactly would he expect that to work? Does he think the Egyptians made a ramp of sloping water??
Click to expand...
Here is a YouTube video I was lead to, that explains it:

My SkeptiSense is tingling about it. But, again, I don't know enough to properly assess it or debunk it.

I imagine maintaining water-tight canals up the sides would be difficult, but not utterly impossible.

The Great Zaganza said:
Would it be acceptable as an explanation if the spacefaring civilization that build the pyramids were genetically human?
Click to expand...
For my purposes, I will assume the humans involved had emerged on the planet Earth. There will be no need to assert any entities from any other planets, regardless of their genetics.


Puppycow said:
If you're putting on a presentation on a topic that you aren't an expert on, it would probably be a good idea to tell everyone that right at the beginning of the presentation. Just be upfront about how much you know about it, how it is that you came by that knowledge, and so on. That way you can't be accused of being a phoney. In the worst case, there may be someone there who knows more about it than you do, or about particular aspects of it, or even people who think they know a lot about it because of some book they read that you don't know about, or things like that.
Click to expand...
Yes, I very much do plan to do that! My very first slide will disclose the fact that I am not an expert, and that any opinions I express should not be considered very important.
 
I don't think watertightness of the elevator is that important, because as long as water flows in faster than it leaks out, the stones would float up, and the leakage would drop back into the lower canal. What does seem to be lacking here is an explanation of how they got the water to the top of the pyramid in the first place. I can't find much on the pumping possibilities of the time. The Archimedean screw is a couple of thousand years off.

e.t.a. I see some suggestion of hydraulic rams, which are indeed a way to get water up without the mechanical complexity of pumps, but not much documentation to back it up.
 
Last edited:
Practically speaking, the pressure at the bottom of such a column of water, some hundreds of feet deep, would be more than enough to blow out wooden "lock gates" and even reasonably sized stones forming the sides. As for mud being used to seal the "pipe", that would give way rapidly, leading to a colander of leaks. The idea is as impractical as it is ridiculous and unsupported by the least bit of evidence. Crackpottery at its finest.

The only real fact is what has been known for ages: the Egyptians used mud as a lubricant when dragging large stones on barges.
 
bruto said:
That's the one I've heard about. But one can sort of guess that if ramps were used and found effective at one end, they might have at the other too.

I don't know the answer to this, but at the Pyramid end of things, is there much at all describing the construction? It seems as if maybe this was not considered a proper subject to depict.
Click to expand...
We've only recovered a tiny amount of the total of inscriptions and writings of the Egyptians may have made. There are hints in the pyramids text but they may be metaphors dealing with religion, some images of construction but not of the Giza pyramids.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Practically speaking, the pressure at the bottom of such a column of water, some hundreds of feet deep, would be more than enough to blow out wooden "lock gates" and even reasonably sized stones forming the sides. As for mud being used to seal the "pipe", that would give way rapidly, leading to a colander of leaks. The idea is as impractical as it is ridiculous and unsupported by the least bit of evidence. Crackpottery at its finest.

The only real fact is what has been known for ages: the Egyptians used mud as a lubricant when dragging large stones on barges.
Click to expand...

I would like to add that the stones really weren't cut as perfectly as many people think. The Egyptians used gypsum to make a flat surface on top of the previous row of stones, so it would be flat enough to drag the next row of stones on top of them, but it provided almost nothing to keep them glued to each other. It wasn't concrete.

So basically they had no way to make such a column water tight.

To add more context to your point, the pressure if filled to the top of the Great Pyramid would have been about 1427.54 kPa, or 14.28 bar, or 14.09 atm, or 207.05 psi. As a point of comparison, the max pressure allowed in your water pipes is 80psi, and a more common pressure is 50 to 60 psi. (Well, in the USA, anyway.) The slightest leak would basically be, well, not exactly a water cutter, but more than enough to wash out the gypsum and some of the stone too. (If nothing else, minute quantities of limestone would dissolve in the water.) And become a major leak.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom