Is there a problem with selective historical memory in the Arab World?

Mike B.

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I know we all have selective historical memories. Cultures and countries have their foundation myths and focus on the good, etc.

However, reading Al Jazeera and the Arab news, I feel that this has become a particular problem now with the conflict in the East/West.

Here is a link to an editorial in Al Jazeera:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/247B538A-449B-47DF-BE4B-351AED0FDA6C.htm

Quote:

"Let us not be deceived about this rhetoric of liberalism and free speech. The Danish cartoons have nothing to do with freedom of expression and everything to do with hatred of the other in a Europe grappling with its growing Muslim minorities, still unable to accept them.

Muhammad, who had been depicted in medieval legends as a bloodthirsty warrior with a sword in one hand and a Quran in another, is now made to brandish bombs and guns. Little seems to have changed about Western consciousness of Islam.

The collective medieval Christian memory has been recycled, purged of eschatology and incorporated into a modern secularised rhetoric that goes unquestioned today.

The medieval world abounded with hostile stories, folktales, poems and sermons of Muhammad where the imagination was given free reign.

About Muhammad, or “Mathomus” all could be said since, as the 11th-century chronicler Guilbert of Nogent had put it: “One may safely say ill of a man whose malignity transcends and surpasses whatever evil can be said about him” (Dei Gesta per Francos, 1011).

Guilbert’s Muhammad, like that of most medieval authors, bears little resemblance to the historical Muhammad, or his journey.

Just as in the Danish caricatures, he appears as a scoundrel who used licentiousness and the promise of paradise with its many beautiful virgins to lure men into following him. His career was devoid of virtue. His vast empire was built on slaughter and bloodshed.

In the popular Chansons de Geste, written from the 11th to the 14th century at the height of crusading fervour, reflecting sentiments and beliefs that were widely accepted, Muhammad and his followers, the "Saracens" are described in the most grotesque of terms.

Creatures of Satan, they are painted with huge noses and ears, blacker than ink with only their teeth showing white, eyes like burning coals, teeth that can bite like a serpent, some with horns like the antlers of stags.

Humans inherit their prejudices as they do their language. Europe has inherited an enormous body of stereotypes of the Muslim elaborated in the course of many centuries of confrontation with Muslim civilisation.

Islam could not be regarded with the same detached curiosity as the far away cultures or beliefs of China or India. Islam was always a major factor of European history.

As the historian Richard Southern put it, Islam was Latin Christendom’s greatest problem, a mighty military and cultural challenge, dazzling in its power, wealth, learning and civilisation."

Fine...It goes on.

But how come things like the destruction of the Near-Eastern Civilizations, the conquest of Spain, the brutality inflicted on the Balkans for hundereds of years, the attacks on Vienna, etc. have all been erased from the collective memory, and only the Crusades exist?

America or 'Merria's first conflict with any foreign power was with the Barbary States in the early 19th century, as they proceeded to kidnap and capture Americans "infidels" and sell them into slavery, in particular the women to be sex slaves in Turkish harems unless the US paid money. Should I walk around with a perpetual chip on my shoulder about this?

I don't mean to single Arabs out as the only people who do this, but in our quest to not offend are we playing into this historical memory loss?
 
Nobody should really use history as excuse for modern politics, simply because nobody's historical hands are clean. Go far enough back, and everyone's wading in blood and entrails and feasting on corpses. It's human nature.

History should be a caution to people to behave better, not a source for talking points for whatever agenda someone's pushing.
 
I've seen that cartoon posted all over internet bulletin boards... 99% of the time it is being posted by someone who legitimately hates Muslims.
 
But how come things like the destruction of the Near-Eastern Civilizations ...
Mongols
... the conquest of Spain ...
Berbers
... the brutality inflicted on the Balkans for hundereds of years, the attacks on Vienna
Turks
etc. have all been erased from the collective memory, and only the Crusades exist?
So not just Arabs in the sin-bin.

Iberia blossomed with the coming of the Muslims, which re-established civilisation. It was a land for Muslims, Christians and Jews. That, of course, did not survive the Reconquesta. The Balkans were no more brutalised than Western Europe during the Ottoman period, and it was a land of Muslims, Jews, Catholic and Orthodox Christians. That, of course, did not survive the advent of European nationalism.

The Near-Eastern civilisations were brought to the point of collapse before the rise of Islam, in fact that was why an Arabian religious movement was able to expand in the first place. That was due to relentless Byzantine attacks, which also exhausted Byzantium. The Byzantine motivation was ... you've guessed it, Holy War for the Cross. The Orthodox Cross, that is. With the resources of an Orthodox Euphrates behind them, the Western schismatics would be easy meat.

Islam rescued Near-Eastern civilisation, and was absorbed by it. The Islamic culture that was the jewel of the world before the Mongols came was a continuation of thousands of years of that civilisation, synergising (is that a word?) with Iran, India and China.

Christendom in the period your quote refers to did indeed view Muslims as monsters, just as they did Jews, witches or the wrong kind of Christian. Their communities were determinedly mono-cultural, so they had no chance to meet people from other cultures. Except perhaps Jews, who were the only exception allowed, and not always and everywhere.
 
The battle must be fought, a battle against intolerance, hatred, myth of cultural superiority and will to hegemony over the other.
I don't have any particular problems with that piece.

Mike B : your problem seems to be that it doesn't address a list of issues that you think are the ones that matter before addressing others. Is there a hint of cultural superiority there? I wouldn't accuse you of selective historical memory, although I do suspect selective historical knowledge. That deal with the Berbers of Algeria, who were pursuing an age-old piratical career, is known to you, but it does involve the US. Do you actually know much about anything that doesn't directly involve the US? The wider history of Berber piracy, for instance? Before the "sex-slave" comment, did you consider all those mulatto childer in the South?
 
History should be a caution to people to behave better, not a source for talking points for whatever agenda someone's pushing.
So it should, but ...

The points Soumaya Ghannoushi makes about European reactions to multi-culturalism are valid. Mike B reads them and reacts with "She didn't mention this, or this, or this ..." which, IMO, says a lot about one European (Western, Christendom, whatever ...) reaction. 'Murrican women, white women being sold as sex-slaves to Turkish harems. Does he for one moment consider the white boys? I suspect not. Does he consider the black sex-slaves of plantation-owners? At least they were being exploited by Christian folk, I suppose.

European culture has not accomodated diversity well in any of its history, and while a culture can change in one generation I see no sign of that in Europe. The immigrant communities, mostly black or Muslim, were (in effect) brought in to internalise the fading benefits of Empire. Cheap labour for dying industries that couldn't afford locals; they had the option of tie-wearing careers. Now those industries have died and yet they're still here. What's more, their offspring are here.

My great concern is that Europe will revert to type. Almost everything I see going on suggests that it will. Polarise, demonise. It's worked before.
 
The Near-Eastern civilisations were brought to the point of collapse before the rise of Islam, in fact that was why an Arabian religious movement was able to expand in the first place. That was due to relentless Byzantine attacks, which also exhausted Byzantium. The Byzantine motivation was ... you've guessed it, Holy War for the Cross. The Orthodox Cross, that is. With the resources of an Orthodox Euphrates behind them, the Western schismatics would be easy meat.

.

Pedant: I think that Rome (and it's successor Byzantium) were having wars with the Sassanids way before Constantine had a death bed conversion. The espousal of Christianity was neither here nor there, the Byzantine/Persian wars continued because the two regional superpowers mistrusted, hated, and feared each other.

Moving on, Some historic Moslem regimes were relatively tolerent it is true, unfortunately they are not relatively tolerant now. And it is the now that concerns us. At least "the West" seems to try and make an effort with multiculturalism etc.

I would say that Mike B is right in that Moslem spokesmen often portray their themselves as historically having been oppresssed by eeevil imperialist colonialising powers. The big bogeyman being complained about being (not the late 19th/early 20th century but) the Crusades (nb not the Baltic Crusades), with the implication that they are innocent martyrs.

Of course we (erudite sceptics) know that both Christians and Moslems have switched roles as aggressor and victim depending on the balance of power
ie. Adulasia/Reconquista, Manzikert/Crusades/Balkans (and so on, until the unvieling of New Labour's ethical foriegn policy in 1997 which finally secured the moral high ground... )

Both sides are human, and have had human failings - focusing on one sides victim status is unhelpful (and untrue).
 
I don't have any particular problems with that piece.

Mike B : your problem seems to be that it doesn't address a list of issues that you think are the ones that matter before addressing others. Is there a hint of cultural superiority there? I wouldn't accuse you of selective historical memory, although I do suspect selective historical knowledge. That deal with the Berbers of Algeria, who were pursuing an age-old piratical career, is known to you, but it does involve the US. Do you actually know much about anything that doesn't directly involve the US? The wider history of Berber piracy, for instance? Before the "sex-slave" comment, did you consider all those mulatto childer in the South?

I'm not sure I understand your point.

The mulatto children of the South were indeed the products of rape, and a form of sex-slavery. I'm not sure how that goes to the point I was making. I certainly am not claiming some sort of immunity from criticism for the US.

I did indeed mis-speak about "Arab," I should have said "Islamic." Of course, the Ottomans Empire subjected the Arabs actually.

I brought up the Tripoli issue and the US to bring a point of saying that if I wanted to I could be angry at historical incidents all the time. Certainly the whole Barbary issue is longer than the US's inovlvement in it, but what does that mean about this?

What I was referring to is the constant victimization theme of some of these sources and the harping on the Crusades in many of them. I really don't think anyone's hands are clean per se, but I have the feeling that many in the West are much more able to be self-critical about their culture's past. It would appear from some of this that the Islamic world has never engaged in any aggressive behavior. It reminds me of the comment that "Rome conquered the world in self-defense."

I like to think I know a good deal about US and European history. I am afraid not so much on East Asian history and others.
 
So it should, but ...

The points Soumaya Ghannoushi makes about European reactions to multi-culturalism are valid. Mike B reads them and reacts with "She didn't mention this, or this, or this ..." which, IMO, says a lot about one European (Western, Christendom, whatever ...) reaction. 'Murrican women, white women being sold as sex-slaves to Turkish harems. Does he for one moment consider the white boys? I suspect not. Does he consider the black sex-slaves of plantation-owners? At least they were being exploited by Christian folk, I suppose.

Please don't put thoughts in my head from what you seem to think an 'Merrican would think. I brought that list up of things to point out the hypocrisy of only talking about the alleged sins against Islam. I have no idea where I implied I am somehow fine with Christian oppression of people.

If you want good clean and unadulterated Xian oppression, go look what happened to the Incas. Not very nice.
 
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Pedant: I think that Rome (and it's successor Byzantium) were having wars with the Sassanids way before Constantine had a death bed conversion. The espousal of Christianity was neither here nor there, the Byzantine/Persian wars continued because the two regional superpowers mistrusted, hated, and feared each other.

Moving on, Some historic Moslem regimes were relatively tolerent it is true, unfortunately they are not relatively tolerant now. And it is the now that concerns us. At least "the West" seems to try and make an effort with multiculturalism etc.

I would say that Mike B is right in that Moslem spokesmen often portray their themselves as historically having been oppresssed by eeevil imperialist colonialising powers. The big bogeyman being complained about being (not the late 19th/early 20th century but) the Crusades (nb not the Baltic Crusades), with the implication that they are innocent martyrs.

Of course we (erudite sceptics) know that both Christians and Moslems have switched roles as aggressor and victim depending on the balance of power
ie. Adulasia/Reconquista, Manzikert/Crusades/Balkans (and so on, until the unvieling of New Labour's ethical foriegn policy in 1997 which finally secured the moral high ground... )

Both sides are human, and have had human failings - focusing on one sides victim status is unhelpful (and untrue).

Well, I wish I had said it so well...
 
Histroical knowledge is rather selective and unfortunately this can effect politics.
And the selectiveness is especially differing between rather free and no so free societies.

Remeber, africa suffered heavily by the actions of the "west", especially millions of africans were taken as slave. It's a realy dark chapter of our history and some africans think we should pay compensation for 400 years of slavery.
And there are people in europe and US, thanks to free speech, who advocate this idea. So evil, immoral west not caring for its past crimes.

But imho the first nations sued should be some arab and north african:
immobilienscout24.de/de/finden/RequestDispatcher.jsp?scoutIdAction=go&attr1=37552352&ftc=9004EXP

Arabs started getting slaves from africa in 8th century, europeans in 15th.
Europeans/US stopped in 19th, arabs in 20th century.
I didn't found in wiki, but as being closer and longer activ, arabs also enslaved more people than europeans and US.

But nobody realy knows, because in arab and north africa, there are no historians funded to do free independant research and no way to express opinions about that matter.
But most important reason nobady knows is, that arab treated their slaves far worse than europeans, therefore there is no black minority in the arab world.

A constant with free societies, since they are also free to look at their errors and often do so, they have a far worse reputation than unfree societies, which simply do not look at their errors - and the facts are forgotten.

Carn
 
European culture has not accomodated diversity well in any of its history,
As contrasted with the thriving Christian, Jewish, Hindu, and Buddhist minorities in, say, Iran? As contrasted with the thriving non-Arabian minorities in, say, Saudi Arabia? Europe might have botched the job in assimilating its Muslim minorities, but a Muslim in Europe typically enjoys a lot more economic, political, and social freedom than does a European in most Muslim countries. In fact, he typically enjoys a lot more economic, political, and social freedom than does a Muslim in most Muslim countries. I don't think the issue is really "selective memory" in the Arab (I think Mike B. meant to say "Muslim") world, so much as it is a case of the Muslim world complaining about the west's sins while ignoring its own much greater ones.
My great concern is that Europe will revert to type. Almost everything I see going on suggests that it will. Polarise, demonise. It's worked before.
You don't believe the Muslim world does far worse?
 
Iberia blossomed with the coming of the Muslims, which re-established civilisation. It was a land for Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Don't you mean with the Muslim conquest of Iberia? You use the word coming to describe the muslims but then the word conquest to describe the Christians reclaiming Iberia.

You say it was a land for Muslims, Christians and Jews but this ignores the concept of dhimmi and the speacial taxes and sanctions that applied to non Muslims in majority muslim lands.

In your following posts you say that Europe is not good at accomodating minorities. I find that hard to reconcile when immigrants to the UK (for instance) are not treated as second class citizens are not taxed differently and have the exact same rights as anyone.

Do you mean that Muslims treated non-muslims better than we treat minorities in Europe relative to the prevailling standards of the time?

This is an important issue as non-Muslim Spain is often mentioned by Al Qaeda and various Palestinian groups as being of big importance.
 
The Islamists that conquered Iberia were not Arabs, but Moors, North Africans.
Up until the 20th century Arabs were considered as little more than barbarians their fellow Muslims.
 
Up until the 20th century Arabs were considered as little more than barbarians their fellow Muslims.
This is how I read it, too. The common role of the Arab, or Bedouin, was to swoop down from the Syrian Desert into civilised areas that were having problems. It's not going to make you popular. One important role of civilisation was to keep the Arabs out. Islam was accepted by the civilised peoples, but its revelation to an Arab was one of the god's tests (a cross to bear, so to speak) not a promotion of the Arabs - while Arabs tend to think otherwise.
 
Pedant: I think that Rome (and it's successor Byzantium) were having wars with the Sassanids way before Constantine had a death bed conversion. The espousal of Christianity was neither here nor there, the Byzantine/Persian wars continued because the two regional superpowers mistrusted, hated, and feared each other.
Trajan made Mesopotamia his bitch, this is true, but it wasn't the Persians who were devastating the Eurphrates Valley as a war-policy - a perfectly normal one for the time, and much time after. The final war, Heraclion's, that let in the Muslims/Bedouin was quite literally for the Cross - the Sassanids had nicked it from Jerusalem. The true one, that is. They got it back, and much good did it do them.

Moving on, Some historic Moslem regimes were relatively tolerent it is true, unfortunately they are not relatively tolerant now. And it is the now that concerns us. At least "the West" seems to try and make an effort with multiculturalism etc.
Islam was conceived as a multi-cultural society, albeit with Muslims calling the shots. (Next in status were Jews, at the bottom Christians and Zoroastrians.) Christianity, as it has come down to us, was conceived as a state religion, a unifying tool of the state. Islamic states have been remarkably tolerant of diversity in comparison to Christendom. Not a coincidence, IMO. The West's efforts at multiculturalism are very recent - post-WW2, post-60's in the US South - and I don't see much evidence that it's bedded in. Rather the opposite.

Islam is able to accomodate Christians, but Christendom has not accomodated Muslims until very recently. Where Christendom took in Muslims by expansion, the Muslim presence was eradicated, one way or another. Iberia, Calabria, Sicily, Greece, Serbia. The process was most recently at work in Bosnia and Kosovo.

Christendom has even found it difficult to accomodate different versions of Christianity in the same place.

I would say that Mike B is right in that Moslem spokesmen often portray their themselves as historically having been oppresssed by eeevil imperialist colonialising powers. The big bogeyman being complained about being (not the late 19th/early 20th century but) the Crusades (nb not the Baltic Crusades), with the implication that they are innocent martyrs.
You have to appreciate the mindset. The irruption of Christian barbarians into the Islamic world had as traumatic an effect as the irruption of the Vikings into Christendom. The Crusades are inevitably more iconic in the Muslim world than in the West because they won. So yes, they bring it up, and yes, you find it odd, but you have to appreciate the context.

Of course we (erudite sceptics) know that both Christians and Moslems have switched roles as aggressor and victim depending on the balance of power
ie. Adulasia/Reconquista, Manzikert/Crusades/Balkans (and so on, until the unvieling of New Labour's ethical foriegn policy in 1997 which finally secured the moral high ground... )
Quite. The Ottomans were imperialists, not holy warriors. Sure, you wear the mantle and it motivates some of the troops, but mostly it justifies the loot that really motivates them. Religion is a tool, as I'm sure we'd agree.
 
If you want good clean and unadulterated Xian oppression, go look what happened to the Incas. Not very nice.
I'm damn' glad there was an ocean between the Incas and my forebears when the Incas were at their oppressive peak. Ditto the Mayans and Aztecs. For really nasty religion, Mesoamerica has no challenger. Why that is I have no idea. I'm just glad the Atlantic's there. Sometimes I'm glad it's getting wider.
 
I'm damn' glad there was an ocean between the Incas and my forebears when the Incas were at their oppressive peak. Ditto the Mayans and Aztecs. For really nasty religion, Mesoamerica has no challenger. Why that is I have no idea. I'm just glad the Atlantic's there. Sometimes I'm glad it's getting wider.

It may be nasty. Just look at some of the Aztec art that has come down to us. But that is no excuse for a Pizzaro or the enslavement of the "heathens."

I would bet the Conquistador were more interested in shiny metals than the souls of the natives. Still it is a conveinant mindset to have the natives be below you for not believing in your particular myths.

BTW,
The last comment about the Atlantic getting bigger. As you said, "Is there a hint of cultural superiority there?"
 
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Iberia blossomed with the coming of the Muslims, which re-established civilisation. It was a land for Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Comparatively, yes.

However, you forget to note that under that Muslim rule, Jews and Christians were second-rate citizens officially.

The Near-Eastern civilisations were brought to the point of collapse before the rise of Islam, in fact that was why an Arabian religious movement was able to expand in the first place.

Yes, but Islam was essentially agressive from the start. It was commanded to wage war on all non-Muslims, and did. That it was succesful since its enemies were weak is hardly a point in Islam's favor.

And, speaking of the "land for Muslims, Christians, and Jews", this is not exactly what happened to the Christian / Pagan population in the Middle East, Persia, etc. during the time of Islam's conquests. It was Islam or death.

Again, the problem is not that mideaval Muslims acted in, well, mideaval ways of intolerance and conqeust; the problem is that modern Muslims act this way.

Islam rescued Near-Eastern civilisation, and was absorbed by it. The Islamic culture that was the jewel of the world before the Mongols came was a continuation of thousands of years of that civilisation, synergising (is that a word?) with Iran, India and China.

Again, yes; but again, to point out the obvious, SINCE that time, "what have the Muslims ever done for us?".

Once more the problem is not that Islam had a conquering phase and a mideaval golden age. The problem is that the Islamic world had stagnated since then. Having no renaissance, scientific or industrial revolution, it remained in effect in the 12th century. As glorious as that time was for the Arabs, things have changed.

Besides, I wish it WAS the 12th century. The sultan in Cairo at the time, who had Jewish and Christian physicians, for example, would be assassinated today by the liked of Hamas for treason. Islamists don't want to go back to the 12th century, but to the 7th.

Christendom in the period your quote refers to did indeed view Muslims as monsters, just as they did Jews, witches or the wrong kind of Christian. Their communities were determinedly mono-cultural, so they had no chance to meet people from other cultures. Except perhaps Jews, who were the only exception allowed, and not always and everywhere.

Muslim societies were also mono-cultural. Sure, Christians and Jews were allowed, but only if they paid the dhimmi tax and accepted the superiority of Islam. All others--i.e., pagans--had only the choice of conversion or death.
You seem to consider "multiculturalism" as the ultimate good.
 

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