Is religion inevitable for any conscious evolving species?

[sphenisc]

You've never seen a "coexist" bumper sticker.

Not that I'm aware of.

 

[theprestige]

Not that I'm aware of.

Then it's no surprise you've missed all the other more subtle clues of western tolerance of all religions.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Then it's no surprise you've missed all the other more subtle clues of western tolerance of all religions.

The fact that people "tolerate" other religions pretty much implies that they don't put it on the same level as their own.

"You don't have it quite right, there, but that's OK, you're trying your best."

 

[sphenisc]

Then it's no surprise you've missed all the other more subtle clues of western tolerance of all religions.

On the contrary, I had notice a paucity of witch trials recently...just wasn't sure if it was due to tolerance or COVID.

 

[HansMustermann]

The fact that people "tolerate" other religions pretty much implies that they don't put it on the same level as their own.

"You don't have it quite right, there, but that's OK, you're trying your best."

Pretty much, but what I was saying is that basically that's what most of ancient polytheism was like. We have prayers from Mesopotamia to every single god in their pantheon -- which, btw, means over a hundred gods -- that even feel a need to reassure their own god that, basically, 'yes, I know you're the real one, the others are fakes'. (Not exact liturgical formula, mind you, but the general gist of it.) Just, well, if other people follow the wrong god or even the wrong version of yours (for assimilated gods) it's their problem not yours.

Not the least because it didn't only mean you can live together with your neighbour who's from Ur and worships Sin, and the other neighbour who's from Uruk and worships Inanna and so on. It was even essential to internal AND international relations, since to have ANY kind of treaty with any other city-state, whether on equal terms or as vassals or whatnot, you had to at least pay lip service that yeah, the god that the other city state's king claims to represent on Earth is also a perfectly good god.

And actually, even more than you'd think. Since each king claimed to be the representative of a god and enacting the will of that god, treaties and councils and whatnot were discussed in terms of being treaties between those respective gods. It wasn't just a treaty bewteen king Wossname of Ur and king Whatshisface of Uruk. It was a treaty between the gods Sin and Inanna. So, you know, you really couldn't have a treaty at all if you said "nope, that other one isn't a real god"

(But again, this only applies to gods. Animism is a whole other topic.)

 

[Thor 2]

You've never seen a "coexist" bumper sticker.

Never did see one of those myself. I bet it's not the fundie Christians or Muslims or whatever displaying them on their bumpers.

Mind you, listening to Vision radio some years back I did hear some talk along those lines. "Faith is good no mater what faith" was some what weakly suggested. Didn't seem to strike a cord with many.

 

[dann]

Right. Point being that linking to a post with broken links in 2021 doesn't really do all that much, even if the links were good in 2013.

So more bickering about a post where some links no longer worked instead of comments to the new links I provided you with.
You're welcome ...

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're so quick to dismiss stuff like children praying because they didn't do their homework. (Cf. message #51.) If there's a moment in time when you have the least control over your life, it's when you're a kid. It's especially easy to get into a situation where you'll never finish the homework you got for the summer vacation in time, and there's literally nothing you can do about it. You can't call in sick to give yourself another day or anything. (Well, not unless you're going to fake mom's signature or anything.)

Even you yourself can come up with the actual solutions to the problem that the vast majority of children come up with, like "to fake mom's signature". You can continue from there: 'the dog ate my homework', 'the laptop ate my homework' etc.

The excuse 'God didn't help me with my homework no matter how much I prayed' is so rare that I doubt that it ever happened. As a high-school teacher, I have heard numerous variations of 'computer ate my homework' or, when handing in papers became an online thing, faked botched attempts to send the homework, which, when elegantly carried out, turn into 'teacher's computer couldn't open my attached document'.

It is possible that some students pray to God that their teachers are too inept to discover their scams, but the main reason why that is probably not the case is the one you begin with: This whole thing from the beginning isn't out of their control. The students are not the helpless victims of fate, nature or society, and there are there are other ways to solve the problem in this world even if it takes having to stay up all night to write the damn paper.

That a lot of praying, other rituals and wearing of lucky pieces of clothing before exams is another thing, which I have mentioned in previous posts.

 

[dann]

Never did see one of those myself. I bet it's not the fundie Christians or Muslims or whatever displaying them on their bumpers.

I notice that an awful lot of Westerners are not particularly tolerant of Islam, and they themselves don't even have to be particularly religious.

Mind you, listening to Vision radio some years back I did hear some talk along those lines. "Faith is good no mater what faith" was some what weakly suggested. Didn't seem to strike a cord with many.

Based on what I have observed, I think that polytheists tend to be more tolerant of other religions than monotheists. Cuban Santeros are usually open to all other religions and superstitions. Kind of like, 'Oh, you have another one to add to the ones I already know about? Tell me about it/them!'
Some of them have pitied me when they heard I didn't have any.

 

[HansMustermann]

Even you yourself can come up with the actual solutions to the problem that the vast majority of children come up with, like "to fake mom's signature". You can continue from there: 'the dog ate my homework', 'the laptop ate my homework' etc.

The excuse 'God didn't help me with my homework no matter how much I prayed' is so rare that I doubt that it ever happened.

We were talking about prayer, not about excuses.

I mean, what do you expect, really? That they actually tell you "I didn't study, I didn't do the homework, but I prayed that God would do it for me"? (Or more realistically, "that you'd forget to check the homework"?) That doesn't exactly work in one's favour, does it?

Excuses aren't even at the same stage. Excuses are at the stage where it didn't work, it's time for damage control. You're trying to say something that puts you in a better light, not worse.

It is possible that some students pray to God that their teachers are too inept to discover their scams

Bingo. Or that the teacher doesn't check the homework. Or they don't get called to the blackboard to solve something when they didn't study. Or, hell, even that it continues to snow and the school gets cancelled. Etc.

but the main reason why that is probably not the case is the one you begin with: This whole thing from the beginning isn't out of their control.

Yes, well, nobody said anything about it being a problem from the beginning. But if everyone was determined to use all the time they had from the beginning to make sure it doesn't end up impossible to finish in time, we wouldn't have the verb "to procrastinate" in the dictionary

The students are not the helpless victims of fate, nature or society, and there are there are other ways to solve the problem in this world even if it takes having to stay up all night to write the damn paper.

I still say you grossly overestimate how high the bar must be to give up and turn to the almighty instead. And it gets even lower if one is depressed, i.e., their natural brain balance is such that they expect a negative outcome for just about everything they think they could do.

I mean, honestly, we actually have people calling to atheist podcasts and such, with stories like that God helped them find their keys, or one woman literally called to say how she pretty much had a divine intervention at the gas pump. None of that is some great distress, or what most people would consider being some helpless victim.

Look, I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise that lacking control is what creates that. All I'm saying is that you seem to think everyone fights hard to stay in control when they can. For a LOT of people, no, you don't have to be a helpless victim of society, you just need to be lazy or depressed or whatever to just turn to the almighty anyway.

 

[HansMustermann]

I mean, while hostage kids in the ex-USSR make a dramatic case at one end, let me illustrate something pretty close to the other extreme end.

Mom's story about how she discovered religion after previously being an atheist, is pretty much this: she had just given birth, was handed the baby (me), and had no idea WTH to do with it. So she promptly turned to God.

NOW, I will admit that a baby isn't something completely under your control (SIDS is a thing after all), so I'd even sorta understand it happening sooner or later. But we're talking about right in the hospital in a western country, not in a tent up the mountain in East Bumscrewistan. If you don't know how to stick a tit in the baby's face (which apparently honest to her God was the first thing she had no idea about,) you're in literally the best place to ask someone. There are doctors, there are nurses, there are other moms. (Hell, if we're talking "from the beginning", one can flippin' read a book in advance.) You're at literally the one point in space-time where getting that information is the most under your control. Well, nope. She first asked God. THEN eventually asked a nurse, 'cause God turned out to not be forthcoming with the information

Example #2 comes from watching a World Of Warships gameplay clip from an (I think) Russian streamer. Now I'm not particularly good at Russian, but thankfully someone had subtitled it, and I can at least understand enough to know that yeah, God was being mentioned a lot.

So anyway, she's playing a battleship, and a whole wall of torpedoes comes to view from the side. I mean, literally, like 15 torpedoes. Presumably the Shimakaze-class destroyer on the enemy team had puked out every torpedo it had in a tube. So said streamer literally starts asking God for help. Then when the torpedoes run out of fuel right before touching her ship, she's like, "See? I asked God for help and he saved me."

Like. What. The. Hell.

It's literally the farthest away from being in any actual danger of any kind. It's a video game. Even if your character or vehicle were hit by an ICBM nuke, it still wouldn't affect you. It has less consequences than even getting a bad grade in school, or anything. It has less consequences than sleeping on the wrong side, as my shoulder is reminding me at the moment. There literally are no consequences. And I don't even mean just RL consequences, but even longer term consequences in the game are nil. You exit the round, and your ship is as good as new.

But nope, let's bother God for THAT anyway

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I distinctly remember praying to God to let me find some desperately needed stuff like keys.
Those were some of my most fervent prayers.

 

[HansMustermann]

Makes me wish I were religious 2 years ago, when I had to literally call and ask to do home office 'cause I can't find my keys and I'm locked in my own house. Honest to FSM, it really happened