Is ours a Christian civilization?

TimCallahan

Philosopher
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Having recently posted on the thread about Tony Blair's attack on atheists, I was reminded of a number of books rwritten in the past few years by Christian intellectuals asserting that Western Civilization owes most of its character to its Christian heritage. Among these are Dinesh D'Souza's What's So Great About Christianity and Rodney Stark's The Victory of Reason, subtitled How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success. Between them, these two books assert that everything from separation of church and state - allowing religious freedom and secular disciplines free from religious dogma, science, democracy, capitalism and even romantic love are hallmarks of Western Civilization because of Christianity.

Both authors have a point in that capitalism and the free market did come from western and central European civilization, as did modern science, and this culture was, up until the twentieth century, basically Christian. However, I think that contingency, such as the effects of geography, played a far greater part in the development of Western Civilization. I can link two of the supposed Christian heritages to such contingencies.

One of these is separation of eclesiastical and temporal power, which ultimately became interpreted as separation of church and state, and which enabled the creation of secular states. This certainly did not happen in the Islamic world, nor did it happen in China, and the failure to separate secular concerns from religious oversight was certainly detrimental both to the Islamic world and the nations of the far east. However, the separation of ecclesiastical and temporal power was, I believe, the result of happenstance, and it was by no means implicit in Christian culture. The latter assertion is easily demonstated, in that there was no separation of ecclesiastical and temporal powers in either the Byzantine Empire or Czarist Russia, both of which were Christian cultures.

The reason we have separation fo these powers, in fact, is that the Western Roman Empire fell, while the Eastern Roman Empire remained intact. Thus the Pope in Rome found himself without a protector until the time of Charlemagne, but also without a master. By that time the Pope had become an independent authority, and the basis for a society with two parallel power sructures was the result of the papacy's partnership with the Carolingian kings.

Democracy in Europe is a product of geography. It is not a coincidence that the earliest rrepublics outside the Italian city states were geographically isolated: England was on an island; Switzerland was ringed with mountains; and Holland was separated from it Spanish Hapsburg masters and bordered by France, a nation that would benefit from Dutch independence. Physical isolation, particularly that created by being on an island, obviates the need for a standing army, which is costly to maintain. Not having a standing army at his disposal, a king cannot impose his will by main force. Hence the rise of the first republics in places of geographic isolation. Even the Italian city states were somewhat isolated from the power of the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire.

The reason Europe was not unified into a universal empire, as Islamic Civilization frequenly was, in fact, the reason Europe developed as a plethora of small independent states, was that the many barriers - rivers, small mountain ranges, seas - made it difficult for would-be empire builders to unify the sub-continent. It was not for want of desire that imprialists failed to unify Europe, thereby putting an end to both democracy and diversity in Wesern Civilization. In fact, European political history from the end ofthe middle ages has been one cycle of wars after another, in which an imperial power bent unifying Europe under its control was opposed and eventually defeated by an alliance of disparate nations.

Thus, neither the separation of ecclesiastical and temporal powers and the rise of representative forms of government in Western Civilization owed anything to Christianity.
 
I do not think there can be any doubt that (Western) society is founded upon Judeo -Christian values. But it doesn't really make much of a statement about the actual value of them, just that it is happen-stance.

Anything other than Islam would have done quite nicely.
 
Been reading a bit of Jared Diamond there, Tim? Don't blame you - he's a great writer.

Although I find Jared's horizontal axis theory fairly compelling, I don't think it had much of an influence on the development of society's moral culture. Yes, I think that Christianity had more of an influence than geography. I don't have any formal studies to back me up, but it's the conclusion I've come to.

I feel that the Christian moral culture has changed in a pseudo-Darwinian fashion as our technology and affluence have developed. The moral structures that made for a more stable society developed over time and edged out those moral structures that had more of a tendency to destabilise society. Morals compete with each other, with societal longevity and stability providing the selection pressure.

Furthermore, I think that this would have occurred regardless of whether it was bathed in a sea of Christianity or something else. It just happens that the Bible - specifically the New Testament - can be easily reinterpreted to conform to and, through feedback, influence society's moral culture. Christanity's malleability is therefore its strength (in this particular case). The messages of "do unto others" and "turn the other cheek" and so forth feed into society's self-regulating pseudoevolution and develop it in a direction that serves to stabilise society, rather than bring chaos. "I come not to bring peace, but a sword" and "children shall rise up against their parents" do not, and therefore are not often quoted when discussing morals.

In other words, in terms of a developing moral culture, Christianity works. It works not because it is fundamentally "right", but because it is able to be an agent of development.

Anyway, that's the tentative conclusion I've come to over the years. Like I said, there are no studies that I've found supporting this position. But it makes sense to me.
 
Hux: Perhaps, had there been a way to decouple religion from the state in Islam, Islamic countries would have developed a secular side. Remember that it was the religious wars of the late 1500 and early 1600 that eventually discredited religion enough to break the hold of Christian authorities one everything from science to biblical criticism.

Also, remember that within evangelical Protestantism there is, even today, the doctrine of Presuppositional Apologetics (actually a twentieth century phenomenon), which says that one presupposes the Bible to be true in matters not only of faith, but history an science as well. Had the power of religion not been broken in the West as a result of exhaustive religious wars, we might well be living a society where they would still be debating whether the Earth is round or flat - as in the video from Iraq presented on the Islamic flat earth thread
 
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Been reading a bit of Jared Diamond there, Tim? Don't blame you - he's a great writer.

Although I find Jared's horizontal axis theory fairly compelling, I don't think it had much of an influence on the development of society's moral culture. Yes, I think that Christianity had more of an influence than geography. I don't have any formal studies to back me up, but it's the conclusion I've come to.

I feel that the Christian moral culture has changed in a pseudo-Darwinian fashion as our technology and affluence have developed. The moral structures that made for a more stable society developed over time and edged out those moral structures that had more of a tendency to destabilise society. Morals compete with each other, with societal longevity and stability providing the selection pressure.

Furthermore, I think that this would have occurred regardless of whether it was bathed in a sea of Christianity or something else. It just happens that the Bible - specifically the New Testament - can be easily reinterpreted to conform to and, through feedback, influence society's moral culture. Christanity's malleability is therefore its strength (in this particular case). The messages of "do unto others" and "turn the other cheek" and so forth feed into society's self-regulating pseudoevolution and develop it in a direction that serves to stabilise society, rather than bring chaos. "I come not to bring peace, but a sword" and "children shall rise up against their parents" do not, and therefore are not often quoted when discussing morals.

In other words, in terms of a developing moral culture, Christianity works. It works not because it is fundamentally "right", but because it is able to be an agent of development.

Anyway, that's the tentative conclusion I've come to over the years. Like I said, there are no studies that I've found supporting this position. But it makes sense to me.

Whether you have any formal studies to back you opinion or not, you can still give some evidence. For example, I used the fact that in neither the Byzantine Empire nor Czarist Russia did Christianity produce all those things we cherish in Western Civilization. So, perhaps you could site something in Western Civilization that you think wouldn't be there were we not a Christian culture.

Of course, beyond such proofs, there is an agenda - at least in D'Souza's case - to re-Christianize Western culture as a way to revitalize it. Regardless of your own religious belief or lack thereof, do you see a need to re-invigorate Christian influence in order to save our culture from devolving into one with no values? Or do you think that Christianity's influence is no longer needed?
 
Whether you have any formal studies to back you opinion or not, you can still give some evidence. For example, I used the fact that in neither the Byzantine Empire nor Czarist Russia did Christianity produce all those things we cherish in Western Civilization. So, perhaps you could site something in Western Civilization that you think wouldn't be there were we not a Christian culture.
Well, like I said, Christianity changes, so neither the Byzantine Empire nor Czarist Russia were operating under our current, modern Christian moral structures, which are the product of pseudo-Darwinian competition between ideologies. For things that we might not have if not for Christianity, look to areas of the world that have not been built upon a foundation influenced by European Christianity, like Africa or parts of Asia or the Middle East.

Of course, beyond such proofs, there is an agenda - at least in D'Souza's case - to re-Christianize Western culture as a way to revitalize it. Regardless of your own religious belief or lack thereof, do you see a need to re-invigorate Christian influence in order to save our culture from devolving into one with no values? Or do you think that Christianity's influence is no longer needed?
The latter. I think that our moral structures have evolved to the point where Christianity is long since redundant. This, in my opinion, may have been a contributing factor to the rise of religious fundamentalism in the world, but again this is more of a hunch than anything supported by hard data.

What can I say? You asked. This is my opinion only.
 
We can always rely on hamelekim to bring a little ray of sunshine to a thread. :D

Hah, well, it's true. Of course, I don't see the age of reason as the motive behind it.

People want to do do their own thing, so they have just turned away from the Bible. They pick and choose what they want to follow, and society has suffered for it.

People are less happy now than they have been in half a century, and there is a reason for it. Human nature has screwed everything up, and will continue to do so.

I know you would like to think we are headed towards some sort of technological humanist utopia, but I think that is as much of a fantasy, as you do the second coming.

Look at the rise of depression in society, this world where we just strive for thing, and we become dead inside, and it's no wonder we turn to drugs, porn, mass consumerism, and narcissistic self satisfaction.

People are becoming more and more unhappy with this life, and nothing they do will fill the hole left by God.

I have seen nothing to lend credence to the idea that we will ever have any kind of better world outside of a God ruled one.

If you have evidence that says otherwise please show it.
 
I don't think it's as easy and simple.

Yes, one can look at China and go "see, they weren't _Christian_", but reality is a bit more complex than that. China used to be actually a little bit ahead, until two things happened in succession:

1. The Ming dynasty isolationism

2. The Qing dynasty, well, stupidity

China's tech level actually devolved during the Qing. For example, it went from guns back to swords and polearms, so by the 19'th century the Europeans would get such silly ideas as "yeah, the Chinese invented gunpowder but not guns."

The Qing enforced their own views, down to exactly what haircut should one wear, and those views were simply put medieval.

I don't think religion played any part in that.

And separation of church and state? Really? Anyone sees _that_ as China's problem? The surrealism is astounding.

China didn't even have an official religion, for crying out loud. The closest they had was Confucianism, which is really a philosophy not a religion. It doesn't even touch the spiritual or afterlife domains _at_ _all_. The actual religions, like Buddhism, Taoism, even Islam, were as separated from the government as it possibly gets.
 
Evidence?

You really need evidence?

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSL1550309820070615

ROME (Reuters Life!) - Americans are less happy today than they were 30 years ago thanks to longer working hours and a deterioration in the quality of their relationships with friends and neighbors, according to an Italian study.

Researchers presenting their work at a conference on "policies for happiness" at Italy's Siena University honed in on two major forces that boost happiness-- higher income and better social relationships -- and put a dollar value on them.

Based on that, they concluded a person with no friends or social relations with neighbors would have to earn $320,000 more each year than someone who did to enjoy the same level of happiness.

And while the average American paycheck had risen over the past 30 years, its happiness-boosting benefits were more than offset by a drop in the quality of relationships over the period.

"The main cause is a decline in the so-called social capital -- increased loneliness, increased perception of others as untrustworthy and unfair," said Stefano Bartolini, one of the authors of the study.

This study has a bit of a different view, stating that it hasn't changed much between 1970 and 2004. But I wonder about the study since they say that pets don't make a person any happier. But we know that pets make a huge difference with lonely people. So who were these pet owners? Single, lots of friends, married with kids? Important information in regards to whether or not a pet makes a person happier or not.

Especially since 2004 was still the bubble era, where people were spending lots of money they didn't have to boost their happiness, as they were during the 90's as well.

During the 80's inflation hadn't made a huge dint given the fact that the median wage hasn't risen since the 1970's.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/301/are-we-happy-yet

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Ah, so Americans are less happy. And strangely, Americans also usually come out pretty high on the charts of the most religious...
 
Ah, so Americans are less happy. And strangely, Americans also usually come out pretty high on the charts of the most religious...

Everyone says they are a Christian, how many attend Church? We know that people make less money now than they did in the 1970's, and that wealth consolidation hasn't been this great since just before the Great Depression.

Church attendance is way down.

http://themoralcollapseofamerica.blogspot.com/2008/10/church-attendance-in-america-is.html

http://www.theamericanchurch.org/facts/2.htm (very slow page)
Church attendance in America is on the decline.

Dave Olson, the director of church planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church, has done some really interesting research into the church attendance patterns of Americans.

Olson's findings contain a ton of bad news. For starters, his research found that the percentage of Americans regularly attending church is only 18.7%.

Olson has put his findings into an eye opening slideshow entitled "Twelve Surprising Facts about the US Church".

Here are some of the things that he found:

The percentage of people who actually physically attend a Christian church each week is quite a bit below what pollsters report.

The percentage of people who attended a Christian church each week decreased significantly between 1990 and 2000.

Only one state, Hawaii, actually saw an increase in the percentage of the population attending church between 1990 and 2000. Every other state in the entire nation saw a decrease in church attendance.

Evangelicals, mainline Protestants, and Catholics are each strong in very different regions of the nation.

The church planting rate has been declining steadily throughout the history of the United States.

If these current trends continue, the percentage of the U.S. population that attends church each week in 2050 will be about half of what it is today.
 
I wasn't aware that piousness was determined by church attendance.

That will come as a shock to Jesus.

Since when does belief in Christ = happy all the time? Or even in general?

It's far more complex than that, and 18% of people is not going to make a large dent in the happiness index, if they are all indeed much happier attending church.

A person can be happy about their salvation, but unhappy because of life events. They can have a general peace about life, but at the same time unhappiness due to life circumstance.
 
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