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Is Modern Christianity Polytheistic?

Tormac

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I was having a discussion with a Moslem friend about comparative religions, and ran into an issue I'd never thought of.

I'm an atheist, but come from a strong fundamentalist Christian background, and often find myself representing the "Christian viewpoint" in these debates, but found that I could not explain the concept of the trinity to my Moslem friend.

He is convinced that Christity is not monotheistic, but tri-theistic. Its the trinity thing that has him convinced. When I considered myself a Christian I had never thought of my faith as a polytheistic one. It seemed easy for me to hold the idea that the father/son/holy spirit were different incarnations of the same entity, but I could not adequately explain this concept to someone who does not accept it already. In fact I was close to conceding that modern Christianity is polytheistic.


I'd love to get some input on a way to describe the trinity that does not sound like apologetics. I know there are a lot of Christians on this board who might have a better articulation of the concept of the trinity than I do. Who can give me a hand?
 
Why exactly would you be interested in doing this?

I was raised Catholic, before turning to the dark side, as my family puts it, (aside: most would think being raised Catholic reason enough to leave it all behind) and I think your explanation of the whole thing quite satisfactory. But why bother? Any explanation you make on the subject will certainly come off as an apologetic for Christianity, because you're trying to make sense of it!

I can't speak for your own experiences, but for my own. That whole lack of sense and internal continuity was what turned me around.
 
I have often wondered about that sort of thing too, especially when one is talking about Catholics.

Many of them revere Mary to the point of godhood. Then there is the practice of having a saint interecede for their soul when they die and appear before god. Then there is oft used phrase "Mother of God!". And so on.

Smells like polytheism to me.
 
Well I understand where you are coming from Robman. There is a lot of incongruity with all the religions that I'm familiar with, or I suppose any philosophy or belief system that is as old as Christianity.

As far as why, I'm looking at it from a scholarly stand point. I've always been fascinated with religions, even though I've not found one that I would say was objectively true. For many people religion is a defining characteristic of their life, and it is hard to understand the actions of some societies without understanding their own cultural constructs. Even if I don't think that they are literally true it is hard to make sense of the institutions of western culture without taking the religious institutions into account.
 
I was at one time a bible thumping fundamentalist (or at least raised to be one). I've often heard the charge that the catholic church is as pantheistic as the classical Greeks with a saint/minor deity for every day of the week. You're not the first one to bring this up Crossbow.

Of course there is still a lot of animosity on the far Christian right directed at the Roman Catholic church. But I think that that is a well know fact already.

I was just stuck on the idea that the trinity itself was poly-theistic in nature, and wanted to find out what others thought.
 
Well I'm not sure that Boethius would be convincing to anyone who seriously thought that the trinity was pantheisttic on a scholarly level, but maybe its just one of those questions of faith.
 
Based on my experience, many christians are turning towards Mary as on equal footing as the Trinity. A recent petition by loads of Catholics to place Mary into the Trinity (the Quad?) is very good evidence of this fact. Couple this with the obsession/books/trinkets about angels and I think an argument that modern christianity is polytheism is not out of the question. There was a good thread here about Pagan beliefs borrowed by christianity, especially about the story of Jesus mirroring a Pagan hero. If this were true, then christianity has solid roots in polytheism, which would explain a lot. Do people need more than just a single entity?
 
From Quasi
There was a good thread here about Pagan beliefs borrowed by christianity, especially about the story of Jesus mirroring a Pagan hero. If this were true, then christianity has solid roots in polytheism, which would explain a lot.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt in my mind that much of the Western World's different flavor's of Christianity have strong pagan roots going to the need to get the Greeks to accept the religion.

The classical story of Hercules parallels that of Christ on many levels, and predates it IIRC. I've read that Christianity was considered the "Jewish Hercules cult" by the Romans for a short period of time before Christianity officially made the brake from Judaism.

But then in the world of competition it is often easier to co-opt a well know brand than start a new one. :)

I was interested in the idea that the trinity itself was inherently a pagan idea, since that seems to be one of the basic models of divinity that defines the Christianity of Western Culture.
 
The thing about Catholicism is its ability to co-opt native custom and local gods(desses), especially these days. Some of the Masses held in Mid-and South America are fantastic amalgams of ancient custom and modern religion.

I was raised Catholic and was always perplexed when asked by Protestant friends if Catholics were "christian'--my response was we were the first Christians, which always rather set them back a bit. What, they never heard of Luther? Reformation? Sadly, quite a few hadn't, though they had been oddly informed that we didn't believe Christ was the Savior.

The trinity was always explained to me as a triune God (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost--no, it don't make sense, but there you have it). Each was an aspect of all. And "Mother of God" --well, the Virgin was the mother of Christ, who was the Son, who is the second aspect of the Trinity. Confusing? Yes! But fun for the whole family. Polytheistic? Nah. Not really. There is and always will be the number one guy in the sky, with the omniscience and stuff--the saints and angels and Virgin are only intercessors to the top. Supernatural bureaucracy at its finest. Plus, it keeps hack painters in Milan busy cranking out saccharine holy cards so my Mom has something to give me on major holidays, like St. Swivvins Day.
 
I did not mean for this thread to pick on Catholicism in particular. (My apologies I think I shoved the topic adrift :))

I realize that orthodox Catholicism is not any more poly-theistic than the most ardent Calvinist sect. But that many protestant groups use the image of popular Catholicism to raise the image of paganism.

What I was wondering about was the Trinity itself.

Melissa Johnson, you wrote

"There is and always will be the number one guy in the sky"

Question, when you say that are you talking about God the Father? or the whole Trinity? The image of the "big guy in the sky" seems to me to be a classic reference to god the father in particular and not the entire trinity.

Or maybe I'm trying to put words into your mouth.

Just curious how other Christians would describe the nature of the trinity of someone of a differing faith, or a atheist who seriously thought that?
 
Boethius was nothing more than special pleading. True Believers understand and don't question!

As for christianity being polytheistic, don't just look at the trinity. You also have to consider Lucifer/Satan/Adversary/whatever name is popular. You've suddenly got a pantheon. Then take a look at the level between humanity and godhood. If as the bible states that humanity was gods ultimate creation then why have angels? Then you get to add in the people that have ascended to heaven without dying, Elisha being the one brought to mind (I think there is another but I'm not sure offhand).
The RC Church is even more confusing since it also adds in the virgin Mary as well as a whole host of saints.

Ossai
 
Tormac said:
I did not mean for this thread to pick on Catholicism in particular. (My apologies I think I shoved the topic adrift :))

I realize that orthodox Catholicism is not any more poly-theistic than the most ardent Calvinist sect. But that many protestant groups use the image of popular Catholicism to raise the image of paganism.

What I was wondering about was the Trinity itself.

Melissa Johnson, you wrote

"There is and always will be the number one guy in the sky"

Question, when you say that are you talking about God the Father? or the whole Trinity? The image of the "big guy in the sky" seems to me to be a classic reference to god the father in particular and not the entire trinity.

Or maybe I'm trying to put words into your mouth.

Just curious how other Christians would describe the nature of the trinity of someone of a differing faith, or a atheist who seriously thought that?
Click to expand...

Well, not speaking for other Christians, it was always put forward to me that although we do worship a Trinity, that God the Father was the ultimate source and the other two aspects were lesser varieties. If you have the inclination to go back and study some of the Church's history, you'll find that there were rather violent disagreements early on about the nature of the trinity--my memory is sketchy, it's been awhile--as well as Christ's human/divine nature, and whether or not Mary was or remained a virgin. The current belief system is what won out over all the other wrangling--and the wranglers often did not survive the outcome. It's been discussed here before--St. Athanasius had a lot to say about all this, and the Trinity idea is not exactly the oldest aspect of Christianity. It came along some years (centuries) later. It's all esoteric and arbitrary, of course, and would be amusing if not so serious...
 
Let's not forget that not even the Vatican Council can explain it. It is officially described as a mystery, a term which is being used in a very specific way. Meaning that even after it has been explained it is "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness".

ya, right.

I was forced to go to catecism every week, and remember the nums trying to explain the trinity to us. That was one of many instances when I realized that they had no idea of what they were talking about.

So basically, you cannot explain it to your friend because the Catholic church itself cannot explain it in a rational manner, which they admit.

more info here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#IV
 
The Trinity is one of those things that can't be explained. It is a 'mystery'. It is definitely polytheistic, but of course an xian will never admit to it.

I think the problem materialized under Constantine. They had to decide whether Jesus was a man or a god. The votes got tallyed and he became a god. So god was here on earth. But Jesus prays to god in heaven, so who is he praying to? Himself?

"God, forgive them for they know not what they do." Well, you do it....you're right there anyway.

The Holy Ghost is like a really bad super-hero sidekick. He doesn't say anything - he doesn't do anything - I think they should let him go.
 
Thanks for the replies.

The exact place of Satan in the structure of angels was one of the things that got me in trouble.

I know what you're getting at Ossai. It always seemed to me that if Satan was a creation of God, and subject to God's omnipotent authority, then ultimately God is responsible for the evil deeds of Satan (just as I am morally responsible for a pet pit-bull).

If Satan is outside of God's authority and power to control then at best he's a full deity.

Maybe this is just a question that I'm going to have to let go on faith and give up on. :)
 
God + Jesus + Satan = 3, and 3 > 1. Do the math. It's polytheism, even if you're only calling one divine entity "God." Each of the others match God's powers in some way, forming a pantheon, and at the same time, since they're not equal, a hierarchy.
 
I havent taken the time to read all the other replies but I'm going go out on a limb and say No, Christianity is not polytheistic because of that whole one god thing they got going. I dont think the Trinity refers to 3 seperate gods but I can see how someone might misinterpret it.
 
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