Is it wrong to buy a purebred puppy?

[Minoosh]

This question is already addressed to some extent in a Travis thread. It had not been obvious to me that buying purebred dogs might be morally wrong. But that's what some animal rights activists are basically saying. By creating a market for dogs that have been inbred in order to express certain traits, we're are creating dog breeds that are at high risk for serious health problems. Also by creating a demand we are dooming dogs to being no better than puppy-mill slaves, constantly kept pregnant and mistreated in numerous ways. In the meantime mixed-breed dogs often face euthanasia at a higher rate because people have their heart set on a certain breed.

I get all that, but if a little old lady wants a poodle she ought to be able to get one, IMO. Losing my current dog would/will rip my heart out. If I ever get another dog/puppy I would gravitate to her breed. But I don't really want to be part of a systematic, ongoing abusive practice that churns out unhealthy dogs while healthier ones are being euthanized for want of a permanent home. I feel somewhat conflicted about the topic and want to know what other people think.

 

[John Jones]

The mutts I have adopted have been far healthier and happier than the pure-breds. I despise puppy mills, and the pure bred dogs I've had all had some serious problems. The last several pets I've had I got from an animal shelter. A girlfriend and I went there and adopted 7 cats at once, got them neutered, and found homes for them.

This is not exactly what you asked, but there it is.

 

[MikeG]

Obviously there are excesses at the margins, and some breeds really shouldn't exist (I'm thinking of those with innate breathing difficulties, for example). But my view is that designating all pure-bred dogs as a problem would be vastly over-stating the case.

In the UK there is an interesting divergence happening with dog breeds. Many breeds have a "working" pedigree line or a "show" pedigree line, and the result is two quite distinct dogs. Buy, for instance, a show Labrador and you get a very different (taller, heavier, more rounded, bigger muscled) animal than if you buy a working Lab (which has been bred for retrieving shot game-birds). Same with spaniels, especially springers.

The other huge trend, which we ourselves have joined, is "doodles"...........cross breeding established breeds with standard or miniature poodles. Golden doodle, labradoodle, cockerpoo, and so on, which produce bright animals which don't shed hair and don't upset those with allergies. I think the Kennel Club, who up to now have controlled dog breeding here, are very worried about this as their monopoly is being broken.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

one question: do you plan on continuing the "pure-breed" line?

 

[Darat]

As a general rule of thumb don't go for a dog from a "show" breeder (this is a generalisation so of course doesn't apply to all*) their regard for a dog is in it being able to win a show for the breeder. These dogs will usually have all the "bad" issues of the breed as that is what they are judged on in shows. They will also often try to hide potential problems in their pedigree line - I know many a tale of breeders doing this - even threatening legal action!

It is intensive breeding whether for a show standard or for profit (puppy farms) that is the problem with getting a particular breed. If you avoid both of those you'll probably get a dog that looks like the breed it is meant to do without the concerns extreme inbreeding (puppy farms/show breeders) cause.

I've owned purebred (Afghans), mongrels, recused "designer" mongrel (lurcher) and currently a "designer" mongrel (a 10 year old labradoodle).

It's a truism - everything in moderation.





*I have shown dogs, never breed them to show but do have first hand experience of show breeders.

 

[Minoosh]

one question: do you plan on continuing the "pure-breed" line?

Not at all. Does that make it better or worse?

I've owned purebred (Afghans), mongrels, recused "designer" mongrel (lurcher) and currently a "designer" mongrel (a 10 year old labradoodle).

I've never met anyone with an Afghan. They are one of the oldest breeds, correct? Did it have excessive hereditary health problems?

It boggles my mind that all this variety is contained in the wolf genome, and in a relatively low number of generations.

 

[mikado]

As a general rule of thumb don't go for a dog from a "show" breeder (this is a generalisation so of course doesn't apply to all*) their regard for a dog is in it being able to win a show for the breeder. These dogs will usually have all the "bad" issues of the breed as that is what they are judged on in shows. They will also often try to hide potential problems in their pedigree line - I know many a tale of breeders doing this - even threatening legal action!

It is intensive breeding whether for a show standard or for profit (puppy farms) that is the problem with getting a particular breed. If you avoid both of those you'll probably get a dog that looks like the breed it is meant to do without the concerns extreme inbreeding (puppy farms/show breeders) cause.

I've owned purebred (Afghans), mongrels, recused "designer" mongrel (lurcher) and currently a "designer" mongrel (a 10 year old labradoodle).

It's a truism - everything in moderation.





*I have shown dogs, never breed them to show but do have first hand experience of show breeders.

Tell me is it true that afghans are the stupidest breed? I have heard it so many times but I haven't ever really met a stupid dog so I doubt it very much.

Is your labradoodle a great dog? I would love one...

 

[MikeG]

.......Is your labradoodle a great dog? I would love one...

Our golden doodle* is. Wonderful dog. More intelligent than a golden retriever, and great fun.

*Golden retriever/ standard poodle

 

[lionking]

Come after my purebred beagle <-------- at great cost to your wellbeing.

 

[JJM 777]

It had not been obvious to me that buying purebred dogs might be morally wrong.

The rules of dog breed organizations tend to be a bit stricter than what legislation would allow. For example, dog breed organizations might say that producing puppies is only allowed with dogs which have received a good score in health check. And a female dog is only allowed to have some 5 sets of puppies in her lifetime, at specified minimum intervals, and between a minimum and maximum age. Mixed breed dogs live outside of the protection of such rules, as legislation is laxer than this. So a documented purebred from an ordinary family should be the best deal, ethically.

Puppy factories are as wrong as any other unregulated and profit-maximized animal industry, for example the beef that you just ate in your Big Mac has probably seen a worse life than the dogs at puppy factories.

Personally I choose from the supermarket shelf the milk of free-ranging cow, and eggs of freely running hens, even if they cost twice more than standard milk and eggs. And I bought a purebred beagle from an ordinary loving home, not from a puppy factory, which are illegal where I live.

All the afore-mentioned moral aspects of various animal businesses just need some morally upright legislation. Laws already ban puppy factories in many of the more advanced countries, and banning unhealthy dog breeds is constantly under discussion. Then a purebred dog becomes the morally and practically better option, as they have a documented genetic, owner and show grade history, the statistical probability of health problems is known (so you can buy a statistically very healthy breed), and their behaviour as adults is more predictable than in mixed breeds, so you get the kind of behaviour that you expected.

 

[JJM 777]

As a general rule of thumb don't go for a dog from a "show" breeder

I thing about buying a dog from any fanatic breeder, be it for excellence in shows or in service, is that the fanatic breeders have equally fanatic friends who buy from them. As a random outsider just popping in to buy a puppy, you are almost guaranteed to be given the worst puppy of the set, as the fanatic breeder and his/her fanatic buyers pick the best ones for their own purposes, and they realize that you are a layman who will not even notice that you were given the worst one. But with good luck, their perception of a good puppy might be useless, and your "worst dog" might be the best one by the standards of any average person.

 

[Rolfe]

On "Supervet" last night, one of the cases was a German Shepherd puppy who became very lame only eight weeks after being acquired. The cause was osteochondritis dissecans, a hereditary condition that has been recognised for well over 40 years. The pup needed some extremely expensive surgery involving a custom-made prosthetic implant for the knee.

Nobody said a word about the horror of pups with that condition still being born, or the necessity of checking very carefully that you're not buying trouble. I think they should have done.

But many breed societies are actively tackling genetic problems in the breeds and many pedigree dogs are lovely animals. I suppose the answer to the OP is, no it's not wrong, but you need to be very discerning indeed about what you buy and who you buy it from.

 

[Darat]

Not at all. Does that make it better or worse?

I've never met anyone with an Afghan. They are one of the oldest breeds, correct? Did it have excessive hereditary health problems?

It boggles my mind that all this variety is contained in the wolf genome, and in a relatively low number of generations.

Thankfully I had my last Afghan over 20 years ago. They are an example of the terrible things show breeders do to a breed, it used to be they were quite a sturdy build under all that hair (for a sight hound) with a straight line back - now they are bred to be slight and with a pronounced slop to the back (yep you can guess the consequences of that fashion).

Tell me is it true that afghans are the stupidest breed? I have heard it so many times but I haven't ever really met a stupid dog so I doubt it very much.

The answer is yes and no. From the prospective of an owner that wants a very obedient dog that will follow your commands then an Afghan can seem to be stupid. I would hold they aren't so much stupid as wilful and stubborn and do what they want when they want to.

I had one that learnt to open all the doors in the house - lever handles and doorknobs - and he knew which ones he had to walk backwards to get through.

I once went out and left the dogs in the back yard (no hardship for them) and came home to find the dogs in the house... Wondered had I left the back door open by mistake? No - he had torn out the cat-flap and pulled the door apart so he could get in... I did say wilful![/quote]

Obligatory photo of said villain!

Is your labradoodle a great dog? I would love one...

Can't recommend the "breed" enough, she is the first dog I've ever had that has no hangups, no neurosis and no health problems. The only thing she's had wrong with her is cut paws. And temperament wise could not ask for a more friendly laid back dog. (Her only ever "problem" was how friendly she was as a pup - would not recall if she saw another dog.)

 

[Darat]

On "Supervet" last night, one of the cases was a German Shepherd puppy who became very lame only eight weeks after being acquired. The cause was osteochondritis dissecans, a hereditary condition that has been recognised for well over 40 years. The pup needed some extremely expensive surgery involving a custom-made prosthetic implant for the knee.

Nobody said a word about the horror of pups with that condition still being born, or the necessity of checking very carefully that you're not buying trouble. I think they should have done.

But many breed societies are actively tackling genetic problems in the breeds and many pedigree dogs are lovely animals. I suppose the answer to the OP is, no it's not wrong, but you need to be very discerning indeed about what you buy and who you buy it from.

Ah OCD - the problem my mum had with one of her great danes - from a much "respected" breeder of great danes (championship level judge). When I mentioned legal threats from breeders this was one example I was very closely involved with. Her line has (or did back then) have OCD and it was a well known "secret" and she didn't give a damn nor did the other show breeders.

 

[3point14]

Ignoring the slightly ranty prose - which I haven't really read, the contrasting pictures on this page make interesting viewing:

http://www.quickmeme.com/news/what-i-just-learned-about-these-8-purebreds-made-me-angry/

 

[mikado]

Thankfully I had my last Afghan over 20 years ago. They are an example of the terrible things show breeders do to a breed, it used to be they were quite a sturdy build under all that hair (for a sight hound) with a straight line back - now they are bred to be slight and with a pronounced slop to the back (yep you can guess the consequences of that fashion).




The answer is yes and no. From the prospective of an owner that wants a very obedient dog that will follow your commands then an Afghan can seem to be stupid. I would hold they aren't so much stupid as wilful and stubborn and do what they want when they want to.

I had one that learnt to open all the doors in the house - lever handles and doorknobs - and he knew which ones he had to walk backwards to get through.

I once went out and left the dogs in the back yard (no hardship for them) and came home to find the dogs in the house... Wondered had I left the back door open by mistake? No - he had torn out the cat-flap and pulled the door apart so he could get in... I did say wilful!

Obligatory photo of said villain!

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_144f81ea8054f0.jpg[/qimg]




Can't recommend the "breed" enough, she is the first dog I've ever had that has no hangups, no neurosis and no health problems. The only thing she's had wrong with her is cut paws. And temperament wise could not ask for a more friendly laid back dog. (Her only ever "problem" was how friendly she was as a pup - would not recall if she saw another dog.)[/QUOTE]


That's a lovely dog... maybe I should look at a golden doodle, we have two ten year old dogs, of a decent size (Labrador x size) amd we have a rule that we always have a reserve in play before that dreadful moment, it helps the grief of all parties...

 

[KatieG]

When we went looking a dog to take over after losing our lab, we did a lot of research. Known health issues, breed specific traits, all of it. We settled on the Harrier. Hound family, bigger than a beagle, smaller than a foxhound. Then we looked for a breeder. Harriers aren't common in the US. The Brits think we're nuts cuz they're not considered pets in England, they are/were working dogs. It took 3 months but it was well worth the wait. Since they aren't common, there aren't a lot of litters.

One of our Harriers was my show dog. Going to dog shows taught me a lot about the good, the bad, and the ugly in the show world and dog breeders. Excellent breeders keep up with health checks for the puppies. Owners are asked to have hip checks when the dog is 2, eye checks by age 5. Seems like it never stops. There are also show quality puppies and pet home puppies. Bit of a gamble when you (the generic you) have to decide by the time the pups are 6 weeks or so. One of my favorite seminars was a breeder showing development as the dog aged. One of her demo comps showed a gorgeous 8 month old puppy and at 2 years old it was hard to tell it was the same dog.

My Harrier was winning from 6 months up to 18 months and then nothing. The breeder lived close and had a couple dogs from the same litter so we compared. She is also a vet tech so she knew a lot. They all had a chest structure defect that narrowed the rib cage, not giving their hearts enough room to expand properly for an endurance dog. Didn't show him again and got him neutered. It was a fairly expensive lesson.

Being a military brat, we didn't have pets cuz we never knew where we'd end up. I reserve the right to have the dog of my choice as long as I cause no harm. We donate generously to animal rescues.

 

[3point14]

When we went looking a dog to take over after losing our lab, we did a lot of research. Known health issues, breed specific traits, all of it. We settled on the Harrier. Hound family, bigger than a beagle, smaller than a foxhound. Then we looked for a breeder. Harriers aren't common in the US. The Brits think we're nuts cuz they're not considered pets in England, they are/were working dogs. It took 3 months but it was well worth the wait. Since they aren't common, there aren't a lot of litters.

One of our Harriers was my show dog. Going to dog shows taught me a lot about the good, the bad, and the ugly in the show world and dog breeders. Excellent breeders keep up with health checks for the puppies. Owners are asked to have hip checks when the dog is 2, eye checks by age 5. Seems like it never stops. There are also show quality puppies and pet home puppies. Bit of a gamble when you (the generic you) have to decide by the time the pups are 6 weeks or so. One of my favorite seminars was a breeder showing development as the dog aged. One of her demo comps showed a gorgeous 8 month old puppy and at 2 years old it was hard to tell it was the same dog.

My Harrier was winning from 6 months up to 18 months and then nothing. The breeder lived close and had a couple dogs from the same litter so we compared. She is also a vet tech so she knew a lot. They all had a chest structure defect that narrowed the rib cage, not giving their hearts enough room to expand properly for an endurance dog. Didn't show him again and got him neutered. It was a fairly expensive lesson.

Being a military brat, we didn't have pets cuz we never knew where we'd end up. I reserve the right to have the dog of my choice as long as I cause no harm. We donate generously to animal rescues.

I could be getting this wrong, but breeding to the kennel club standard has actually weakened this dog's physiology to the point where it can't actually do what the breed was bred to do?

As I say, I may have misinterpreted.

 

[varwoche]

There are such a thing as reputable breeders, but you must do your research.

I like big dogs. I own a Rottie. I wouldn't buy a dog such as this without meeting the parents, and without knowing parents' health background, and without seeing the breeder's facility. This rules out rescue of course.

 

[Pterodactyl]

I'd be all over getting a dog from the pound if I had the expectation that it could reliably be counted upon to swim through a half-frozen lake to retrieve crippled ducks or run all day to flush quail. I think you'd have to get very luck to get a dog that you could even teach to do those things from a rescue or shelter.
The whole "show dog" thing is a little creepy to me, but then again Im sure people think killing wild game for sport/food is creepy too.
Leave the shelter dogs for the hipsters to Facebook humblebrag about, I say.