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Is God an Illusion?

FreeChile

Graduate Poster
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,039
The following dilemma applies equally to everyone interested in making a significant change. It applies equally to the philosopher and the theist.

I am speaking from the point of view of the person that I am.

God is an illusion. You cannot have God without that which is not God (e.g. The Devil). That is the duality of the illusion of God. The one who creates the idea of God is also the one who creates the idea of The Devil.

Wanting God without The Devil is a decease. It’s like wanting energy without matter, or wanting light without darkness, or wanting love without hate. To a point, we have been successful in dissolving certain dualities (or contradictions). For example, in the case of E=mC^2, we partially resolve the contradictions between matter and energy. However, we should note that the contradiction itself had been created by us, and in our solutions we have also created other contradictions (e.g. the one between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics).

These contradictions are illusions and no soon do we fix one to create another.

God is the ultimate contradiction because its purpose is to resolve all contradictions.

Assuming God is not an illusion, searching for God is bound to fail, because the techniques we use to reach God are invalid and they cannot work. They are invalid in the sense that they are also dualistic. The principle idea behind most beliefs is that by doing certain things you can come to know enough to resolve the most elemental contradictions. This is what we call wisdom, understanding, or enlightenment. Yet, wisdom is itself part of a dualism: the dualism that divides the individual from the thing wanting to have wisdom of. So as long as the individual wants to be wise, he will be ignorant.

You may say, well, perhaps I can resolve this contradiction the same way we resolved the conflict between energy and matter, by making them one and establishing a relationship between them. The problem here is clear. Matter alone, nor energy alone, resolved the contradiction. Note that in the famous equation, there is a special constant, C, the speed of light. Light is evidently neither energy, nor matter, and light gave rise to the idea that matter and energy are interchangeable. Light is the most significant element in the equation. Of course, there is more to relativity than just this. There is also the consolidation of space, time, gravity, and other concepts.

I may have done a poor job with the above illustration, but I think you get the gist of what I am trying to say. The individual alone cannot resolve the contradiction between the individual and that which the individual seeks to understand. So the wisdom he seeks is not possible. Likewise, God alone cannot resolve the contradiction between God and The Devil, or God and the individual.

Let’s try the physical analogy once more. Imagine matter wanting to know energy. To fully know energy, matter would have to know of its relationship to energy fully. It would have to know that it [matter] and energy are one, manergy. So it can no longer call itself matter and it can no longer call energy energy. So with this understanding, the idea that matter wants to understand energy is senseless as there is no matter and there is no energy but manergy.

You may say: If matter understood itself fully, meaning if it understood its manergyness, it would also understand energy, as energy is also manergy. The problem is that to understand its manergyness, matter would need to cease being matter and become manergy. How could it do this, if matter is still matter wanting to understand manergy? Also, all that matter knows is matter. Thus matter cannot effect the changes necessary to become manergy.

Another problem with matter is that it wants to be energy or manergy. Wanting to be is what keeps matter in its divided state because it reinforces the idea that it is matter and not something else. To matter, there cannot be something else (either energy or manergy) without matter. It keeps telling itself that it is matter and not that something else.

In some cases, Matter also has another misconception. It thinks everything is matter, energy, or manergy. It has simplified its world this way to a point that it does not see beyond its own simplifications. In its own ineptitude, this gives matter comfort, hope, and its own enslavement.

We can all see how this would apply to the theist. But how does this apply to the philosopher? Well, look at the definition of the title: lover of knowledge. Wanting to know and loving are divisions.
 
Beleth said:
What do you mean when you use the word "God"?
Take any major religion or belief system. I am talking about the Gods of the Egyptians, The Jews, Rama, Vishnu, Sidharta or Buddha, Christ, the God of Science, Lifegazer, the Incas, etc. They are mere variations of the same thing entrapped in our human understanding.

Also, since I can not know any Gods, I speak considering the person who wants to be God, the person who wants to know God, or promote any God.

The meaning of the word God to me is the meaning that has been given to me since I was a child. Remember one thing I said in my initial post: "God is the ultimate contradiction because its purpose is to resolve all contradictions."

God is heaven, God is happyness, God is love. All these statements are definitions of God. Also, they are contradictions. So God is the ultimate solution to all contradictions.
 
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

For one thing, if the belief system possesses no 'Devil' - for example, deism, which promotes that God, having made the Universe, no longer takes any active role in said universe - then the existence of God can, in no way, indicate the necessity of a 'Devil'.

For another, there are belief systems in which God is neither good nor evil; for example, where God is the totality of all being, 'good' or 'evil' cannot be solely attributed to God itself. So contradictions of the sort you seem to be indicating simply would not exist.

Finally, the very title of the topic (Is God an Illusion?) seems an odd thing to ask. What, after all, is an illusion? An illusion is one thing which falsely appears to be another thing. There is always a mechanism of illusion involved. Yet here, we have (within your own statement) a case where there is a phenomenon - God - which cannot be observed nor assessed. How can God, then, be an illusion? I might likewise ask if the Invisible Pink Unicorn is an illusion. It is, in short, an illogical question, leading to an almost senseless post.
 
FreeChile said:
Take any major religion or belief system. I am talking about the Gods of the Egyptians, The Jews, Rama, Vishnu, Sidharta or Buddha, Christ, the God of Science, Lifegazer, the Incas, etc. They are mere variations of the same thing entrapped in our human understanding.
They may be variations of the same thing but they are not the same thing. Buddha is not Christ, for instance; Horus is not Rama; and there is no God of Science.

The meaning of the word God to me is the meaning that has been given to me since I was a child. Remember one thing I said in my initial post: "God is the ultimate contradiction because its purpose is to resolve all contradictions."
And that's yet another variation. Ares' purpose is not to resolve all contradictions.

Perhaps you are talking about something that is above our comprehension, and all we can see is its "shadow" which takes on all these other forms. Would you say that that is a good summary?

God is heaven, God is happyness, God is love. All these statements are definitions of God. Also, they are contradictions. So God is the ultimate solution to all contradictions.
I'm confused. How is happiness a contradiction?

It sounds like you are assuming that God is not omnipresent. Is that true?
 
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.
I will try my best to answer any questions you may have.
For one thing, if the belief system possesses no 'Devil' - for example, deism, which promotes that God, having made the Universe, no longer takes any active role in said universe - then the existence of God can, in no way, indicate the necessity of a 'Devil'.
Certainly, even the Deists must offer some solution to the problems of the world in the name of God. They believe in reasoning as their main vehicle to understanding their notion of God. Their belief that there is a tool for understanding is a problem. This is in spite of their not accepting scriptures, prophets, nor traditions as guides like other religions do. They have simply replaced one technique with another.

Reasoning is logic and wanting wisdom is highly illogical, as I have tried to communicate in my initial post. Also, wanting to be in heaven is illogical. These are contradictions.
For another, there are belief systems in which God is neither good nor evil; for example, where God is the totality of all being, 'good' or 'evil' cannot be solely attributed to God itself. So contradictions of the sort you seem to be indicating simply would not exist.
I would like to know what purpose God serves in such a system. Can you offer an example? Is he there to offer a solution to the problems of humanity? What is the individual asked to give in return?
Finally, the very title of the topic (Is God an Illusion?) seems an odd thing to ask. What, after all, is an illusion? An illusion is one thing which falsely appears to be another thing. There is always a mechanism of illusion involved. Yet here, we have (within your own statement) a case where there is a phenomenon - God - which cannot be observed nor assessed. How can God, then, be an illusion? I might likewise ask if the Invisible Pink Unicorn is an illusion. It is, in short, an illogical question, leading to an almost senseless post.
This opening question is one thing in the post I did not consider heavily. It is the best I could come up with. Yet I have offered examples and illustrations that give you an idea of what kind of illusion it is. I am trying to simply let the thread take its course.

The idea of matter or energy is an illusion if we consider that they are not separate. It is this division that I am emphasizing when I say illusion. Like matter, as an idea, we are taught the concept of God. As I have said before, perhaps this analogy is not that effective; after all, WE can all touch matter and call it by name. Again, the division and what results form it is what I am emphasizing.
 
FreeChile said:
Note that in the famous equation, there is a special constant, C, the speed of light. Light is evidently neither energy, nor matter, and light gave rise to the idea that matter and energy are interchangeable.
Light is indeed energy. Photons are particles of energy. The constant you mention is a velocity, not a particle. It has nothing to do with the energy nature of light.
 
I hate it when they don't show their math...

No, wait, I love it because then I don't have to check it!
 
They may be variations of the same thing but they are not the same thing. Buddha is not Christ, for instance; Horus is not Rama; and there is no God of Science.
In detail they are not the same; intrinsically they are. Buddha offers you enlightenment and Jesus offers you heaven. How different are these two things, really? They are both eternal bliss.
And that's yet another variation. Ares' purpose is not to resolve all contradictions.
If you take the whole Greek mythology together with their variations of Gods, you will find a well ordered set of principles and rules designed to reach a level of happiness, pretty much like Buddha or Jesus. Christianity and Buddhism have replaced these Gods with Angels, Archangels, Demons, etc. The rules for the humans are very clear, even though those for the Gods vary.

To achieve the goals set by these systems (e.g. eternal happiness, brotherhood, love), you need to resolve conflicts and contradictions.
Perhaps you are talking about something that is above our comprehension, and all we can see is its "shadow" which takes on all these other forms. Would you say that that is a good summary?
I am not sure what you mean. But we have no way of knowing that what we see is a shadow or some real thing if the case were true.

There are certain conservation laws that do not apply at very high speeds. This is due to the divisions in the physical concepts involved. These laws are said to have no meaning in these cases. Likewise, a law of comprehension between me and anything other than me, makes no sense. It does not mean that it is above or below my comprehension.
I'm confused. How is happiness a contradiction?
I have a two-year old son and a four-year old daughter. My son is beginning to watch a lot of cartoons on TV and he is starting to express himself in terms of wants. My daughter does not do this. To her, there is no happiness and unhappiness. So we (meaning me, my wife and the TV or society) have have begun to teach him what happiness means. Inevitably, we are also teaching him what unhappiness is. You cannot have one without the other. The Gods we preach about, the ones we have invented, offer eternal happiness. This is a contradiction. A being that would otherwise not even think in terms of happiness and unhappiness, is made to live this contradiction.

Also, when I am sitting here doing some work or involved in some activity I do not tell myself that I am happy or unhappy. Indulging in discussions about happiness and unhappiness is what seems to make you either happy or unhappy.
It sounds like you are assuming that God is not omnipresent. Is that true?
Do you really mean omnipresent or was this a typo? Did you mean omnipotent? Please clarify.
 
Re: Re: Is God an Illusion?

Beleth said:
Light is indeed energy. Photons are particles of energy. The constant you mention is a velocity, not a particle. It has nothing to do with the energy nature of light.
That is not what I meant. Also, did you just use the word particle in this post? Is light a particle or a wave? It appears there is duality there too.

Wave-particle- duality of light
 
c4ts said:
I hate it when they don't show their math...

No, wait, I love it because then I don't have to check it!
LOL. I didn't get this before. You are indeed a dualist!
 
Re: Re: Re: Is God an Illusion?

FreeChile said:
That is not what I meant. Also, did you just use the word particle in this post? Is light a particle or a wave? It appears there is duality there too.

Wave-particle- duality of light

Everything is both a wave and a particle. Light is not special. Electron particles have a deBroglie wavelength. Protons, neutrons, quarks, atoms, molecules, you and me all have a deBroglie wavelength. In short all matter and energy can be described either as a particle or as a wave, depending on how you look at it.
 
FreeChile said:
I will try my best to answer any questions you may have.Certainly, even the Deists must offer some solution to the problems of the world in the name of God. They believe in reasoning as their main vehicle to understanding their notion of God. Their belief that there is a tool for understanding is a problem. This is in spite of their not accepting scriptures, prophets, nor traditions as guides like other religions do. They have simply replaced one technique with another.

Not really. Deists simply thing God has nothing to do with it anymore. No solutions. I'd suggest reading sometime.

Reasoning is logic and wanting wisdom is highly illogical, as I have tried to communicate in my initial post. Also, wanting to be in heaven is illogical. These are contradictions.I would like to know what purpose God serves in such a system. Can you offer an example? Is he there to offer a solution to the problems of humanity? What is the individual asked to give in return?

God created the system; God IS the system. What purpose does he serve? His own, of course - or, to us, no purpose at all. Solutions? No - such a God is either ignorant of, or unconcerned with, the problems of humanity. The individual is insignificant in such a system of belief.

This line of questions illustrates another problem that you seem to possess - humanicentric thinking. You think, "if God exists, he must be here in some direct relation to the problems of Man." But, truth be told, there's a pretty good chance that if God exists, Man is utterly irrelevant.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is God an Illusion?

arthwollipot said:
Everything is both a wave and a particle. Light is not special. Electron particles have a deBroglie wavelength. Protons, neutrons, quarks, atoms, molecules, you and me all have a deBroglie wavelength. In short all matter and energy can be described either as a particle or as a wave, depending on how you look at it.
Yes, this is what deBroglie discovered. But Richard Feynman found this duality to be an illusion.
 
zaayrdragon said:
Not really. Deists simply thing God has nothing to do with it anymore. No solutions. I'd suggest reading sometime.



God created the system; God IS the system. What purpose does he serve? His own, of course - or, to us, no purpose at all. Solutions? No - such a God is either ignorant of, or unconcerned with, the problems of humanity. The individual is insignificant in such a system of belief.

This line of questions illustrates another problem that you seem to possess - humanicentric thinking. You think, "if God exists, he must be here in some direct relation to the problems of Man." But, truth be told, there's a pretty good chance that if God exists, Man is utterly irrelevant.

-------------------------------------------------------

Think of God as all information in miniature on a sheet of paper. Within this knowledge is the knowledge that the knowledge itself can't disapear. The paper gets shredded. Out of one of the specs on that piece of paper is information that happens to be us. We are a part of God. We are a part of the complete knowledge.

But, even though this simplistic explanation could be on the right track, it is still like only a 2d explanation as opposed to a 3d one. You have to be able to look at the overall picture in 3d to grasp the concept of God, and what role we play.

Follow this: If you look at space through a telescope and then come back to earth and look at earth and all within it, you are really only observing the universe in a 2d frame of mind. Youare only looking at the surface of things. Even if you crack open a rock, you are still only in the 2d train of thought. Even though the objects are 3d, you are only observing them 2d. This can be illustrated by if I had you look at the picture of the universe and all that is within it, by just looking at photos, maps, etc. It's still only 2d analysis. That is all most of us are doing when we try to figure out God!

But if you really want to figure out God and what role man plays, you have to go within each object. This is where the 3d part comes in. Rather than looking at a ball sitting on a table, you try to go inside the ball to the extend that you start entering molecules..entering atoms..entering quarks...entering where matter and energy fuse...entering the realm of God.

Sort of a thing like that.

Man is some part of creation...a part of that paper from the shredder who has assembled in such a way with his brain, to have the ability above all other creatures, to get closer to God, as we are the microscope that is entering the atom...the quark...and we' re heading towards coming back together with God, the more our knowledge increases, helped by the sheer number of people on the earth which help multiply the ability of us to do so. (I've posted about this human numbers ability before, in other threads).

It's all very "deep". And man is man, and not God. But technically, a part of God that is on the fringe of being able to grasp God.

God is not some giant man 'out' in outerspace somewheres. Nor does he have to be beyond the far reaches of the universe. If you think that way, once again you are trying to figure out where God is on a 2d plane (because you could draw a map in 2d, in theory) pointing to where God is).
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is God an Illusion?

FreeChile said:
Yes, this is what deBroglie discovered. But Richard Feynman found this duality to be an illusion.

I hadn't heard that he had. Would you be so kind as to provide some more information? I know about Feynman's sum-over-paths method as an alternative to the Many Worlds interpretation, but I didn't know that he had countered wave-particle duality.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is God an Illusion?

arthwollipot said:
I hadn't heard that he had. Would you be so kind as to provide some more information? I know about Feynman's sum-over-paths method as an alternative to the Many Worlds interpretation, but I didn't know that he had countered wave-particle duality.
Firstly, the work on the duality should be attributed to three individuals, Sin-Itiro Tomonaga, Julian Schwinger, Richard Feynman.

QED

Or read

"QED. The Strange Theory of Light and Matter"
by Richard Feynman
 

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