Is Catholicism really a monotheistic religion?

[Elind]

On considering "one god" beliefs versus many, from the perspective of an outsider alien, it seems that many religions, and Catholics in particular really worship many gods. One boss and many lesser ones.

Other religions, past or present, have gods for water, earth, fire, war and whatever, but Catholics pray to the father, the son, the ghost, the virgin, and a veritable host of saints, depending on what their desires are.

I realize that they have their own explanations for this, but how does it differ from from praying to the rain god for rain, the healing god for illness the farmer god for crops, and so on? Or doesn't it?

 

[TuftedPuffin]

Depends what a god is. For example, do animists believe in gods? Do people who believe in souls necessarily believe in gods? What about people who believe in Anne Rice style vampires?

All in all, it depends whether you allow there to be godlike things that don't count as gods, or not.

 

[Elind]

I'm trying to be specific here. What is a godlike thing that doesn't count as a god?

Catholics claim to worship "one" god, but appear to worship many from an outside perspective. We all hear the word monotheism.

All multiple god worship, I think, has had at least one that could whop the others if it came to that, but that does not seem to qualify as monotheism.

If you ever enter a Catholic church or cathedral, impressive as it is, if you like kitsch, it is hard for a beginner to know which icon (graven image) one is supposed to be worshiping except for the principle that size matters.

 

[TuftedPuffin]

You're assuming that god and target of worship are synonymous, which is not necessarily a valid conclusion.

Also, most Catholics would argue that they don't actually worship Mary and co., but merely petition them as intermediaries to deliver their worship to the true God.

 

[Minarvia]

You're assuming that god and target of worship are synonymous, which is not necessarily a valid conclusion.

Also, most Catholics would argue that they don't actually worship Mary and co., but merely petition them as intermediaries to deliver their worship to the true God.

As a former Catholic, I think that is true. Veneration is not the same as worship. I venerate some ancestors of mine, but I certainly never did or do worship them. At least to me veneration isn't the same. I define veneration as deep regard and respect, not worship.

 

[Elind]

As a former Catholic, I think that is true. Veneration is not the same as worship. I venerate some ancestors of mine, but I certainly never did or do worship them. At least to me veneration isn't the same. I define veneration as deep regard and respect, not worship.

I understand what you say, but the evidence I have suggests that they pray to these "lesser" gods just as fervently as they would any other. Simply suggesting that the real god doesn't have time for everyone, and needs employees to listen to all the chatter doesn't impress somehow.

I think people pray to the icons just as if they ARE a god and it seems to me that it is a false disguise for many god worship. I would guess that the latter makes it a more personal, focussed experience, and perhaps the natural tendency of the religious mind is towards many gods.

Maybe it would solve a lot of the issues of all these conflicting messages coming from the supposedly same single god, if people would allow themselves to simply say that the god of rain doesn't have a problem with the god of rocks. Peace brother.

 

[OSS 117]

I'm trying to be specific here. What is a godlike thing that doesn't count as a god?

Catholics claim to worship "one" god, but appear to worship many from an outside perspective. We all hear the word monotheism.

All multiple god worship, I think, has had at least one that could whop the others if it came to that, but that does not seem to qualify as monotheism.

If you ever enter a Catholic church or cathedral, impressive as it is, if you like kitsch, it is hard for a beginner to know which icon (graven image) one is supposed to be worshiping except for the principle that size matters.

Hi,

Catholics do worship only one God.

In praying to Mary and the Saints, Catholics are asking for intercession. In other words, they ask Mary and the Saints to pray with them the one God.

Hope this helps some.

 

[Elind]

Hi,

Catholics do worship only one God.

In praying to Mary and the Saints, Catholics are asking for intercession. In other words, they ask Mary and the Saints to pray with them the one God.

Hope this helps some.

So they are asking lesser gods to have a word for them with the bigger god who doesn't listen directly to the common folk?

 

[DonJunbar]

I see where you're going on this. How is praying to the patron saint of test-taking any different than praying to Mercury for a swift journey?

Sure Mercury was a god, and these patron saints are clearly not intended to be gods, just people who died who have supernatural powers now. It makes as much sense as saying the Vietnam War wasn't a war.

 

[triadboy]

... but how does it differ from from praying to the rain god for rain, the healing god for illness the farmer god for crops, and so on? Or doesn't it?

It don't

 

[davefoc]

I thought this thread was going to be mostly about the trinity.

I don't see a conflict between the Catholic idea that saints have supernatural powers, but are not God or not a God. Ignoring trinity issues the sole Catholic God is believed to have created the universe and is believed to have omnipotent powers. Which means I suppose that he could just zap a saint if he felt like it. But saints can't zap God. The distinction seems pretty clear to me.

The trinity thing from my perspective makes the characteristics of the Catholic God logically inconsistent, but at the heart of the Catholic idea about that is the notion that the three entities are just manifestations of the same thing. So, while the idea of the trinity and the ramifications of it might seem confusing and inconsistent to me, I still think the average Catholic believer intends to worship just one God and it is therefore reasonable to see Catholicism as monotheistic.

 

[DonJunbar]

I thought this thread was going to be mostly about the trinity.

I don't see a conflict between the Catholic idea that saints have supernatural powers, but are not God or not a God. Ignoring trinity issues the sole Catholic God is believed to have created the universe and is believed to have omnipotent powers. Which means I suppose that he could just zap a saint if he felt like it. But saints can't zap God. The distinction seems pretty clear to me.

Would you disagree in labeling the saints "demigods?"

 

[quixotecoyote]

Until someone produces an actual god, they remain mythological figures subject to anyone's definitions. Are saints actually god/demigods?

Well. Are Santa's elves actually elves or would they be gnomes or brownies?

We define our own mythologies. In the Catholic mythology saints aren't gods, although if you moved a canonized character out of that myth and into, say, a Greek mythos then you could call it a god or demigod.

 

[negativ]

No, Catholicism totally believes in 937 gods.

 

[Damien Evans]

No, Catholicism totally believes in 937 gods.

I'm curious, where did you get this number from?

 

[Mr. Scott]

No. Many Christian religions are as polytheistic as the religions of the ancient Greeks and Romans. The difference is semantic. Recall how Romans hoped to be promoted to gods after death. How is this different from the Catholic Church promoting the dead to sainthood, except semantically?

Isn't this whole god vs. Satan (another god of most Christian sects) thing just like the ancient roman or Greek gods and their conflicts, playing humanity like pieces on a chess board?

This thread should have a poll. I'd vote that the catholic religion is polytheistic in all ways but semantically.

 

[davefoc]

Would you disagree in labeling the saints "demigods?"

I don't know. Are angels demigods? What about Satan?

I don't think just having some supernatural powers necessarily makes an entity a God, but maybe this is just mostly because of the semantics of a particular religion. I suppose that in the Greek Religion all entities with supernatural power were Gods? Maybe the most significant distinction here is what a particular religion defines as a God.

If the Catholics say they are monotheistic then maybe by at least by my definition they are.

One thing, I've never quite gotten about religion is why people believe that the entities of the religion want to be worshiped. If you were a God would you want people sitting around listening to boring sermons or would you want people out in the world striving, fighting, loving, etc.? The latter seems a lot more interesting to me and let me state right now if for some reason I become a God I don't want a bunch of people sitting around listening to sermons allegedly for my benefit.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I don't know. Are angels demigods? What about Satan?

I don't think just having some supernatural powers necessarily makes an entity a God, but maybe this is just mostly because of the semantics of a particular religion. I suppose that in the Greek Religion all entities with supernatural power were Gods? Maybe the most significant distinction here is what a particular religion defines as a God.

If the Catholics say they are monotheistic then maybe by at least by my definition they are.

One thing, I've never quite gotten about religion is why people believe that the entities of the religion want to be worshiped. If you were a God would you want people sitting around listening to boring sermons or would you want people out in the world striving, fighting, loving, etc.? The latter seems a lot more interesting to me and let me state right now if for some reason I become a God I don't want a bunch of people sitting around listening to sermons allegedly for my benefit.

*makes note to self*

When davefoc achieves godhood, do not start the First Assembly of davefoc church.

Interested in any minions?

DR

 

[blobru]

I call Christianity (and Catholicism) monotheistic because, as God is defined in the Bible:

- He has absolute power over his heavenly lackeys, the cherubim, seraphim, elohim(?), etal. (unlike Zeus, who is like the patriarch in a soap opera);
- He is the eternal heaven-weight champ of the afterworld: baddest god on the block and not shy about saying so (He totally kicks Baal's ass in the OT, for example).

So, when a totalitarian, take no prisoners, ass-kicking super-being says "ain't no God but me", who's going to argue with Him? (Trinity-schminity) -- that's monotheism.

 

[Darat]

On considering "one god" beliefs versus many, from the perspective of an outsider alien, it seems that many religions, and Catholics in particular really worship many gods. One boss and many lesser ones.

Other religions, past or present, have gods for water, earth, fire, war and whatever, but Catholics pray to the father, the son, the ghost, the virgin, and a veritable host of saints, depending on what their desires are.

I realize that they have their own explanations for this, but how does it differ from from praying to the rain god for rain, the healing god for illness the farmer god for crops, and so on? Or doesn't it?

There was a thread that asked a similar question recently: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2909287


Part of my response in that thread was:

drkitten is right about this, if you wish to discuss these concepts (God, angels, devil, demons and so on) you have to accept that the definitions used by the religious people are accurate (as far as what that religion means by them).

To deny that monotheistic religions like Christianity and Islam do have a clear division between their God and other supernatural entities within their religion is to deny the facts.​

For Roman Catholics it is quite simple - there is God and then there is everything else. They are very clear that saints, angels and so on are not "God" and since we are discussing their definition and concept of God we can't say they are "wrong" and their saints are also their gods - the religion is very clear that they aren't.