Irresponsible Assembly.

[JAStewart]

In the past few weeks, something occured to me that was quite weird.

We had, as I'm sure you all did too, Assembly, where we would sit down in the hall infront of the headteacher on a monday and they'd give us the motivational anecdote and we'd sing a song or something. It was the latter that got me thinking.

We used to sing "All things bright and beautitiful", I'm sure you all know it.. "...the Lord God made them all". I think that it is irrisponsible for schools to be making children sing this in School, because above all, it doesn't respect your beliefs. Now, i'm not saying that I was an Atheist aged 8, but my family were in no-way religious or associated with any religion. Sure I'd been to Sunday School and whatnot, but I remember seeing Hindu children singing this in assembly too. It doesn't seem fair that children should have this religious stuff thrown into my face at such an impressionable age.

I mean.. if we have to sign this crap, couldn't we at least sing the Monty Python version?

All things bright and beautiful
All creatures great and small
All things bright and beautiful
The Church has nicked them all.

At least it would contain factual information

 

[TX50]

"All things bright and beautiful, all
creatures grunt and smell..."

 

[Tokenconservative]

In the past few weeks, something occured to me that was quite weird.

We had, as I'm sure you all did too, Assembly, where we would sit down in the hall infront of the headteacher on a monday and they'd give us the motivational anecdote and we'd sing a song or something. It was the latter that got me thinking.

We used to sing "All things bright and beautitiful", I'm sure you all know it.. "...the Lord God made them all". I think that it is irrisponsible for schools to be making children sing this in School, because above all, it doesn't respect your beliefs. Now, i'm not saying that I was an Atheist aged 8, but my family were in no-way religious or associated with any religion. Sure I'd been to Sunday School and whatnot, but I remember seeing Hindu children singing this in assembly too. It doesn't seem fair that children should have this religious stuff thrown into my face at such an impressionable age.

I mean.. if we have to sign this crap, couldn't we at least sing the Monty Python version?

All things bright and beautiful
All creatures great and small
All things bright and beautiful
The Church has nicked them all.

At least it would contain factual information

Only a very tiny population of the world (not sure where you are in the world) has no belief in some sort of "creator"/"creation."

While this is a Western song, and therefore one can assume it is referencing the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God, from what you've supplied (no, I don't know it) it does not seem to be saying "Jesus, the Christ" created them all or some such.

So where's the harm?

Oh...that's right, a few youngsters whose parents are zealous, evangelical "atheists" don't like it.

Well, reason enough right there to stop! And if you are a parent who believes the earth is flat, or that the Holocaust did not happen, or that men never went to the moon, or that Evolution is a lie and a conspiracy, why then...we should accomodate those beliefs too!

Tokie

 

[e-sabbath]

Excuse me, but Athena made _none_ of those things. She did make one spider, mind you, but she didn't make all things bright and beautiful.

 

[TX50]

Excuse me, but Athena made _none_ of those things. She did make one spider, mind you, but she didn't make all things bright and beautiful.

Yes, but she only made the spider to make up for throwing a hissy fit
because Arachne was "disrespectful" and better at needlework. As if
starting the Trojan war wasn't enough. These virgin goddesses...huh?

 

[Big Les]

Only a very tiny population of the world (not sure where you are in the world) has no belief in some sort of "creator"/"creation."

While this is a Western song, and therefore one can assume it is referencing the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God, from what you've supplied (no, I don't know it) it does not seem to be saying "Jesus, the Christ" created them all or some such.

So where's the harm?

Oh...that's right, a few youngsters whose parents are zealous, evangelical "atheists" don't like it.

Well, reason enough right there to stop! And if you are a parent who believes the earth is flat, or that the Holocaust did not happen, or that men never went to the moon, or that Evolution is a lie and a conspiracy, why then...we should accomodate those beliefs too!

Tokie

Not wishing to be compelled to sing about something you don't have belief in, is not a belief in itself. I have no problem with schools having hymns and otherwise Christian religious assemblies, but anyone that wishes to be exempted from it, and whose parents agree, should be permitted to do so. This way, attendance at assembly will reflect the views of non-Christians in society at large. If Christianity remains the dominant religion, they will have enough numbers to continue their version of "assembly". If other religions and none hold sway, then they will cease due to lack of numbers.

It should be about freedom of choice, and not assuming that every child that attends a school should be given the same "spiritual" "education".

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

While this is a Western song, and therefore one can assume it is referencing the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God, from what you've supplied (no, I don't know it) it does not seem to be saying "Jesus, the Christ" created them all or some such.

So where's the harm?

Oh...that's right, a few youngsters whose parents are zealous, evangelical "atheists" don't like it.

Watch the false dichotomy there, Tokie. There are at least three camps:

1. Rabid religious folks who, for some reason, need their kids to sing about God in school.
   
2. Folks who, for various reasons, don't want their kids to sing about God in school.
   
3. Folks who pay no attention or don't care.

Now, in order for this to be an atheist conspiracy with any clout, camp (2) has to be somewhat larger than camp (1). Do you think that's the case? Is it possible that, in some areas, camp (1) might be larger, making it a religious conspiracy?

Well, reason enough right there to stop! And if you are a parent who believes the earth is flat, or that the Holocaust did not happen, or that men never went to the moon, or that Evolution is a lie and a conspiracy, why then...we should accomodate those beliefs too!

And don't forget the beliefs of all the crazies who don't believe in the Easter Bunny or the invisible pink hamster orbiting Neptune! Or, God forbid, those who don't collect stamps.

~~ Paul

 

[Georg]

Only a very tiny population of the world (not sure where you are in the world) has no belief in some sort of "creator"/"creation."

While this is a Western song, and therefore one can assume it is referencing the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God, from what you've supplied (no, I don't know it) it does not seem to be saying "Jesus, the Christ" created them all or some such.

So where's the harm?

Oh...that's right, a few youngsters whose parents are zealous, evangelical "atheists" don't like it.

Well, reason enough right there to stop! And if you are a parent who believes the earth is flat, or that the Holocaust did not happen, or that men never went to the moon, or that Evolution is a lie and a conspiracy, why then...we should accomodate those beliefs too!

Tokie

To compare the non-belief in a creator with the denying of the holocaust, the belief the earth is flat, the moonlandings are a hoax etc. seems a bit strange to me. Do you really think that is about the same or were you just trying to stir up the feces?
Just in case you were serious, and I don´t think so, let´s do it the other way round: Would you please provide evidence for the existence of a creator that is as compelling as the evidence for the earth not being flat, the holocaust to have happened etc.? If you can´t, please shut up. School is for teaching knowledge, not faith. Would you like your children to be forced to sing songs of a religion they don´t belong to?

 

[Tokenconservative]

Yes, but she only made the spider to make up for throwing a hissy fit
because Arachne was "disrespectful" and better at needlework. As if
starting the Trojan war wasn't enough. These virgin goddesses...huh?

Key term: "virgin." YOU try being a virgin for eternity and see if you don't get a little snippy every once in a while.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Not wishing to be compelled to sing about something you don't have belief in, is not a belief in itself. I have no problem with schools having hymns and otherwise Christian religious assemblies, but anyone that wishes to be exempted from it, and whose parents agree, should be permitted to do so. This way, attendance at assembly will reflect the views of non-Christians in society at large. If Christianity remains the dominant religion, they will have enough numbers to continue their version of "assembly". If other religions and none hold sway, then they will cease due to lack of numbers.

It should be about freedom of choice, and not assuming that every child that attends a school should be given the same "spiritual" "education".

Here is the problem, today (at least in US public schools): ANY religious perspective OTHER than Christianity is not only permitted but "celebrated" in the public schools as they work to utterly erase any notion that the faith that is held by the largest percentage of Americans (by far) is held by anyone.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Watch the false dichotomy there, Tokie. There are at least three camps:

1. Rabid religious folks who, for some reason, need their kids to sing about God in school.
   
2. Folks who, for various reasons, don't want their kids to sing about God in school.
   
3. Folks who pay no attention or don't care.

Now, in order for this to be an atheist conspiracy with any clout, camp (2) has to be somewhat larger than camp (1). Do you think that's the case? Is it possible that, in some areas, camp (1) might be larger, making it a religious conspiracy?

And don't forget the beliefs of all the crazies who don't believe in the Easter Bunny or the invisible pink hamster orbiting Neptune! Or, God forbid, those who don't collect stamps.

~~ Paul

Let me see if I understand your reasoning: any conspiracy, in order to be successful, must include the largest number of active participants in a particular population...right?

So Nixon was innocent? Hitler, too? Manson? And Christianity...how exactly did it ever get as big as it is?

Maybe you didn't mean to say that, and we're pretty used to your loose tongue and even looser reasoning, so let's move on:

1. I don't believe that those folks who rabidly desire their particular brand of Christianity to be presented in American public schools should be paid any more attention that that it takes to point and laugh at them.

2. Anti-American "Christians" who want to force their particular brand of Christianity down the throats of American schoolkids are one thing, the rabid SECULARISTS (why don't we use the more accurate term in this debate? Oh...that's right...because it IS the accurate term, and leftists never use the most accurate term when it serves them to use obfuscatory language) who wish to remove not only all traces of Christianity (only) from the public square but also all traces of Western culture are actually dangerous.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

To compare the non-belief in a creator with the denying of the holocaust, the belief the earth is flat, the moonlandings are a hoax etc. seems a bit strange to me. Do you really think that is about the same or were you just trying to stir up the feces?
Just in case you were serious, and I don´t think so, let´s do it the other way round: Would you please provide evidence for the existence of a creator that is as compelling as the evidence for the earth not being flat, the holocaust to have happened etc.? If you can´t, please shut up. School is for teaching knowledge, not faith. Would you like your children to be forced to sing songs of a religion they don´t belong to?

Here's an approach to reading in these forums I've always found marvelously refreshing: read what the person actually says, not what it is you WANT them to have said!

Try it. See if it does not lift the scales from your eyes!

Tokie

 

[John Bentley]

In the past few weeks, something occured to me that was quite weird.

We had, as I'm sure you all did too, Assembly, where we would sit down in the hall infront of the headteacher on a monday and they'd give us the motivational anecdote and we'd sing a song or something. It was the latter that got me thinking.

We used to sing "All things bright and beautitiful", I'm sure you all know it.. "...the Lord God made them all". I think that it is irrisponsible for schools to be making children sing this in School, because above all, it doesn't respect your beliefs. Now, i'm not saying that I was an Atheist aged 8, but my family were in no-way religious or associated with any religion. Sure I'd been to Sunday School and whatnot, but I remember seeing Hindu children singing this in assembly too. It doesn't seem fair that children should have this religious stuff thrown into my face at such an impressionable age.

Well, were you forced to sing it, or just forced to be present while others around you sang it? Was some form of coercion used to make you sing, or were you punished if you kept silent? If so, then that is over the top irresponsible.

However, if you were just forced to be present as part of the class and were therefore simply exposed to a few religious words in a child's song, then I don't see the harm. You are hardly going to be indoctrinated by such superficial exposure to religion when it's not reinforced in your home life. Give me a break.

 

[Tokenconservative]

Well, were you forced to sing it, or just forced to be present while others around you sang it? Was some form of coercion used to make you sing, or were you punished if you kept silent? If so, then that is over the top irresponsible.

However, if you were just forced to be present as part of the class and were therefore simply exposed to a few religious words in a child's song, then I don't see the harm. You are hardly going to be indoctrinated by such superficial exposure to religion when it's not reinforced in your home life. Give me a break.

Indeed. The opposite of this is the hyper-religious Christian who believes that if their children go to a school where the "devil's holiday!!!" (the entirely secular Halloween) is "celebrated" (fun for kids who like to dress up have parties and eat candy) then the very foundation's of their kids Christian beliefs will be irredeemably shaken and so celebrating "the devil" should be banned in the schools.

Of course, these same Christians have no problem at all seeing schools shove Christmas down the throats of all kids, Jew, Hinu, Muslim and atheist.

Tokie

 

[Leicontis]

I don't know the time and location of the schools all of you are talking about. At least the elementary school I went to (which my mother still teaches at, so I'd know if things had changed) was very paranoid about celebrating any non-secular holidays. Granted, this was at least partly due to the occasional Jehova's Witness that that came through. I get the impression that there are, in fact, three major camps:

1. People that want their religious beliefs taught as fact in the schools (most common in the Midwest and Southeast/Southwest parts of the country). These are the ones pushing Intelligent Design, prayer in schools, etc.
2. People that don't want any government-funded organization (including public schools) promoting one religion over another. Most common in the Northeast and West Coast, the fiercer members of this group push for the editing of "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance, and throw a fit if their child is given a candy cane any time in December.
3. People that don't much care either way. Significantly less visible due to their lack of yelling and screaming.

Personally, I'd bet that the third group are in a rather significant majority over the other two combined, but don't appear to be because they're a silent majority. I would say that I fall into the second category, though as long as there is no favoritism shown towards any religion(s) and no attempts at religious/atheist indoctrination, it's fine for minor elements of religion to show up. Official Christmas celebrations are a bit much, but there's nothing wrong with snowmen, reindeer, gingerbread houses, and other secular craft projects.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Let me see if I understand your reasoning: any conspiracy, in order to be successful, must include the largest number of active participants in a particular population...right?

You misunderstood me. I was using the word conspiracy facetiously. The operative word is clout. You are the one implying that it is some sort of conspiracy:

Oh...that's right, a few youngsters whose parents are zealous, evangelical "atheists" don't like it.

Perhaps you don't mean it to sound like a conspiracy. The point is that in some places it might be the religious folks who are zealous and evangelical, and whose numbers give them the clout to force religious events into the schools.

1. I don't believe that those folks who rabidly desire their particular brand of Christianity to be presented in American public schools should be paid any more attention that that it takes to point and laugh at them.

Excellent.

2. Anti-American "Christians" who want to force their particular brand of Christianity down the throats of American schoolkids are one thing, the rabid SECULARISTS (why don't we use the more accurate term in this debate? Oh...that's right...because it IS the accurate term, and leftists never use the most accurate term when it serves them to use obfuscatory language) who wish to remove not only all traces of Christianity (only) from the public square but also all traces of Western culture are actually dangerous.

Agreed. We often refer to these folks as postmodernists. I don't know that they are any more dangerous than various other factions, but so be it. And your idea that all the schools are gleefully celebrating various other holidays is certainly not the case around here.

~~ Paul

 

[Big Les]

Well, were you forced to sing it, or just forced to be present while others around you sang it? Was some form of coercion used to make you sing, or were you punished if you kept silent? If so, then that is over the top irresponsible.

In my school at least, 15-20 years ago, you most certainly would be pulled up for not being seen to sing during hymns, and bow your head and close your eyes during prayers. As long as Christianity is a) your state religion and b) the majority faith (with atheists in the minority also), I can't possibly object to such rituals being observed. But as you say, there's no way anyone should be compelled to do more than be in the same room, and frankly aside from logistical reasons (what do you do with the opt-outs at the same time) I don't see why anyone should have to take part at all. But hey, this is school, not the real world, and children quite simply don't have the same luxury of choice. Perhaps they should, but given the other problems in the typical "western" education system, I think making what is presently a minority feel marginally more comfortable rather than just letting them studiously ignore the hymn lyrics and the head-bowing etc, is over the top cosseting.

However, if you were just forced to be present as part of the class and were therefore simply exposed to a few religious words in a child's song, then I don't see the harm. You are hardly going to be indoctrinated by such superficial exposure to religion when it's not reinforced in your home life. Give me a break.

Agreed. I may not like it personally, but I can't really argue with that. Compulsion to actively take part, I will protest though.

 

[Tokenconservative]

You misunderstood me. I was using the word conspiracy facetiously. The operative word is clout. You are the one implying that it is some sort of conspiracy:

Perhaps you don't mean it to sound like a conspiracy. The point is that in some places it might be the religious folks who are zealous and evangelical, and whose numbers give them the clout to force religious events into the schools.


Excellent.


Agreed. We often refer to these folks as postmodernists. I don't know that they are any more dangerous than various other factions, but so be it. And your idea that all the schools are gleefully celebrating various other holidays is certainly not the case around here.

~~ Paul

Sorry...you are a lib, and I have a very hard time ascribing something like fascetiousness to anything a lib says.

I never said it was a "conspiracy." It's quite clear (to those who wish to see) that the left has been using American schools to proselytize since about 1965 (this is the second go-'round, since Dewey and his crowd couldn't really get it off the ground in the 1030s and '40s). If it's a conspiracy, it's not of the super-secret, Bilderberger-Illuminati kind as they make no secret of it and anyone who is paying attention can see that's what's been going on.

We are supposed to, in America, have "community" schools that reflect the wants and desires of the local community. I know this drives centralized governance libs nuts, but that's how it was set up, and yes, that can mean that you have a district that is filled mostly with evangelical Christians who are not scandalized by a Santa Clause made out of macaroin in the Kindergarten class.

That would not be San Francisco, where a child found doing something like that would be carted off to some sort of district PC re-education class to learn that fat, old white men are evil, and that their fatness is something to be horrified about, and any fat, white old man who gives children toys must also be a pedophile (which leaves many libs a bit confused, because they also believe traditional Christian values regarding sex with children to be "patriarchal" and outdated...Gaia, it's got to be hard to be a lib!).

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

I don't know the time and location of the schools all of you are talking about. At least the elementary school I went to (which my mother still teaches at, so I'd know if things had changed) was very paranoid about celebrating any non-secular holidays. Granted, this was at least partly due to the occasional Jehova's Witness that that came through. I get the impression that there are, in fact, three major camps:

1. People that want their religious beliefs taught as fact in the schools (most common in the Midwest and Southeast/Southwest parts of the country). These are the ones pushing Intelligent Design, prayer in schools, etc.
2. People that don't want any government-funded organization (including public schools) promoting one religion over another. Most common in the Northeast and West Coast, the fiercer members of this group push for the editing of "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance, and throw a fit if their child is given a candy cane any time in December.
3. People that don't much care either way. Significantly less visible due to their lack of yelling and screaming.

Personally, I'd bet that the third group are in a rather significant majority over the other two combined, but don't appear to be because they're a silent majority. I would say that I fall into the second category, though as long as there is no favoritism shown towards any religion(s) and no attempts at religious/atheist indoctrination, it's fine for minor elements of religion to show up. Official Christmas celebrations are a bit much, but there's nothing wrong with snowmen, reindeer, gingerbread houses, and other secular craft projects.

And it's gettin worse. Now that Halloween is on the chopping block, Native Americans are going after Thanksgiving, claiming that NA children are very conflicted by it, and ashamed.

1. And Muslims in the Mid-West wanting Islam taught in the public madrassas...I mean schools?

2. These are zealous, religious, proselytizing leftist-secularists.

3. Most people just don't care. But since they don't file lawsuits and organize pickets and stuff, the schools don't pay attention to them. Besides, the schools are more than happy to carry the water for the left and to help de-Judeo/Christianize and de-Westernize the US.

Tokie

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Sorry...you are a lib, and I have a very hard time ascribing something like fascetiousness to anything a lib says.

You have no idea what my politics are, but you appear to require pigeonholing everyone. Why is that?

I never said it was a "conspiracy."

Okay.

~~ Paul