Irreducible complexity of a simple cell

lifegazer

Philosopher
Joined
Oct 9, 2003
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Let's talk biology and evolution, for a change.

... http://hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/Complexity.htm
Extracts:-
"The term simple cell is an oxymoron. There is no such thing.
... The truth is that the simplest living cell has over one trillion molecules in it... All of the molecules in that cell have to be in just the right place at the right time or the cell will either malfunction or not function and die. Think of it this way, there are from 500 to over 1,000 times more molecules in the simplest cell than there are people on Earth and, unlike the people on Earth, all of the molecules must be in exactly the right place at the right time or it wont work.
... If an evolutionist uses the phrase,"simple cell", he has already started lying to you. There is no such thing."

... http://www.foolishfaith.com/book_chap3_odds.asp
Extract:-
“To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast spaceship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity.”

... http://acs.ucsd.edu/~idea/irredcomplex.htm
Extracts:-
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

"With this statement, Charles Darwin provided a criterion by which his theory of evolution could be falsified. The logic was simple: since evolution is a gradual process in which slight modifications produce advantages for survival, it cannot produce complex structures in a short amount of time. It's a step-by-step process which may gradually build up and modify complex structures, but it cannot produce them suddenly."


Enough ammo there to start a discussion. I'm especially interested in that last paragraph. How do 'Darwinians' explain the origin of the so-called "simple cell"?
 
I'm very soon going to be too busy to play with you, LG, so I'll let the others bat you around awhile. But I do have one simple question; if none of it is "real", it is all just an illusion created by "sensations"- why do you care?
 
having failed elsewhere, you're shifting your rationalizations to try to include ID arguments now? You must be desperate. Someone must have scared you.
 
lifegazer said:
Enough ammo there to start a discussion. I'm especially interested in that last paragraph. How do 'Darwinians' explain the origin of the so-called "simple cell"?
Read your third extract again. "It's a step-by-step process which may gradually build up and modify complex structures, but it cannot produce them suddenly." So, unless you have some evidence that the cell appeared suddenly, it would seem you've answered your own question.
 
Piscivore said:
I'm very soon going to be too busy to play with you, LG, so I'll let the others bat you around awhile. But I do have one simple question; if none of it is "real", it is all just an illusion created by "sensations"- why do you care?
You haven't guessed that I'm using this thread as evidence for God's existence then?;)
 
Re: Re: Irreducible complexity of a simple cell

Marquis de Carabas said:
Read your third extract again. "It's a step-by-step process which may gradually build up and modify complex structures, but it cannot produce them suddenly." So, unless you have some evidence that the cell appeared suddenly, it would seem you've answered your own question.
I'm talking about the origin of the simple-cell, a few billion years ago (ish).
Let me remind you of a snippet from the first paragraph:-

"... The truth is that the simplest living cell has over one trillion molecules in it... All of the molecules in that cell have to be in just the right place at the right time or the cell will either malfunction or not function and die."

We're discussing the origin of this complexity, formed suddenly from the so-called "primordial soup".
 
Re: Re: Re: Irreducible complexity of a simple cell

lifegazer said:
I'm talking about the origin of the simple-cell, a few billion years ago (ish).
Let me remind you of a snippet from the first paragraph:-

"... The truth is that the simplest living cell has over one trillion molecules in it... All of the molecules in that cell have to be in just the right place at the right time or the cell will either malfunction or not function and die."

We're discussing the origin of this complexity, formed suddenly from the so-called "primordial soup".
All right. Find for me, then, the evolutionist who has said the cell formed suddenly from the primordial soup, full-fledged and in its present form and level of complexity.

You may find some help here.
 
Re: Re: Re: Irreducible complexity of a simple cell

Not my field, but:
lifegazer said:
We're discussing the origin of this complexity, formed suddenly from the so-called "primordial soup".
Are you trying to talk about evolution or abiogenesis? The former concerns with the development of living things the latter about the origin of living organisms from lifeless matter. They are not the same thing.
 
Piscivore said:
That was a premise I was comfortable in assuming, yes. I was just getting to Upchurch's question in a roundabout way.
I just fancied a break from "sensed-things". But they shall return to haunt you all very soon.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Irreducible complexity of a simple cell

Upchurch said:
Not my field, but:Are you trying to talk about evolution or abiogenesis? The former concerns with the development of living things the latter about the origin of living organisms from lifeless matter. They are not the same thing.
I'm looking for any kind of scientific/reasonable explanation for the origin of a complexity containing a trillion working parts. Doesn't matter to me what you want to label it.
 
Why not simply kick this thread over to the science section or is this going to be a God of the gaps argument?

 
wifegagger said:
How do 'Darwinians' explain the origin of the so-called "simple cell"?
Well, you see, it's all this big dream of Gawd's --- the "simple cell" is just a ridiculous dream that Gawd has when he falls asleep on the sofa after 8 beers and a meal of really bad Thai take-out food.
 
Lord Emsworth said:
Why not simply kick this thread over to the science section or is this going to be a God of the gaps argument?
Indeed. Is there a reason this thread should not be moved to Science, where it seems to belong?
 
Isn't "complexity" in the eye of the beholder? I mean, it seems to be a relative term. The ballots in Florida are "complex" to some of the voters.
 
Upchurch said:
Indeed. Is there a reason this thread should not be moved to Science, where it seems to belong?
Yes. I'm going to argue that there is no way a trillion parts could all come together, randomly, in such a way as to produce a working "simple-cell".
Unless you want a discussion about 'God' in the science forum, I'd leave it here if I were you.
 
We're not just contemplating the number of working parts in a simple-cell... although that alone is breathtaking.
We're discussing the fact that these parts are all arranged in a specific order, like any other mechanism, so that the cell will function how a cell doth function.

Hence the enormity of the complexity present.
 
lifegazer said:
I just fancied a break from "sensed-things". But they shall return to haunt you all very soon.

LG, before you do some real harm to yourself or someone else, dig out a copy of The Eagles' song "Wasted Time" and listen to the words very carefully. Then, stop the 'gazing' and try 'participating' in life.;)
 

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