Iraq: Kevin Tillman Speaks Out

Piggy

Unlicensed street skeptic
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Let everyone who equates loyalty to Bush with love of country read this:

After Pat's Birthday
, by Kevin Tillman

Kevin Tillman said:
It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.
 
Let everyone who equates loyalty to Bush with love of country

Which is who, exactly? Surely you wouldn't have posted this here for such people to read if no such people are members, so who do you have in mind?
 
An america hater if there ever was one.
I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic. From the link. Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document

Kevin Tillman, Army Ranger. An America Hater? No. Not likely.

IIRC, it is from Pat's brother that SI article (recently published, it is a good read) got the quote from Pat, when they were in Iraq:

"This war is so f***ing illegal."

Much is made on some CT forums that Pat Tillman (a college grad and apparently a guy who thought about philosophy and such, not your garden variety dumb jock) was apparently in touch with Noam Chomsky (by letter or email, I forget) and was interested in chatting with him when he got back from his tour. That too was in the SI article. Some make the connection that Tillman was therefore executed, and orders were given purposefully to wax him. I don't buy that, given what the fog of war can lead to (US Patriot missiles shoot down US Fighter, slight error in plot in Desert Storm and a US Apache waxes a US Bradley) Pat's death in a blue on blue is reasonably well established as lethal error.

DR
 
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Which is who, exactly? Surely you wouldn't have posted this here for such people to read if no such people are members, so who do you have in mind?
No, I'm not going to call people out by name. Although yes, there are some who I personally hope do read it -- folks I've hashed the issue out with on other threads, and folks I've seen post in threads I haven't joined.

But more than that, I just found Tillman's words very direct and powerful. And surely, he speaks with the authority of experience. I thought they were worth posting and linking to. I hope many others read them.

Today I heard our President saying, "Look, I fully understand it's a hard fight in Iraq."

No, he doesn't.

How could he?

He doesn't fully understand it, any more than I do. He's never seen combat.

Kevin Tillman fully understands that it's a hard fight.

Now, I know that not everyone in the military thinks the way Tillman does. But his words are certainly worth considering.

And surely, all of us who agree with Tillman find ourselves from time to time confronted by O'Reilley-types who claim that criticizing the administration is tantamount to slandering our troops. So I posted this for that reason, too... to give like-minded persons more evidence in pocket to confront these zealots with, to say it just ain't so.
 
No, I'm not going to call people out by name. Although yes, there are some who I personally hope do read it -- folks I've hashed the issue out with on other threads, and folks I've seen post in threads I haven't joined.

But more than that, I just found Tillman's words very direct and powerful. And surely, he speaks with the authority of experience. I thought they were worth posting and linking to. I hope many others read them.

Today I heard our President saying, "Look, I fully understand it's a hard fight in Iraq."

No, he doesn't.

How could he?

He doesn't fully understand it, any more than I do. He's never seen combat.

Kevin Tillman fully understands that it's a hard fight.

Now, I know that not everyone in the military thinks the way Tillman does. But his words are certainly worth considering.

And surely, all of us who agree with Tillman find ourselves from time to time confronted by O'Reilley-types who claim that criticizing the administration is tantamount to slandering our troops. So I posted this for that reason, too... to give like-minded persons more evidence in pocket to confront these zealots with, to say it just ain't so.
I never thought that anyone giving President Bush a poke in the eye was an affront to me. Part of his job's discription is "put up with flak for what you do, don't do, and could have done." It comes with the badge.

Kevin's message is certainly tinged with bitterness. Can't say I blame him, after all his mom went through to find out the simple truth. The dissembling by the chain of command was not well done. :(

DR
 
We are at war, like it or not. Neither the 'constitution' nor the 'nation' are CIC; at the moment, Bush is.

If one feels he should be impeached, one should begin those efforts. Or if that isn't appealing, armed revolt is one's final remedy.

Actually, I strongly suspect the BushCheneyHalliburton haters here will just continue their Jane Fonda imitations.
 
We are at war, like it or not.

You're demonstrating a collectivist delusion. No, "we" are not at war. Certain politicians think they're at war and segments of the military are at war, but "we" are not. You're sitting nice and safe in your house in front of your computer.

Neither the 'constitution' nor the 'nation' are CIC; at the moment, Bush is.

Nonsense, Bush is CIC because the constution delegates that role to the president. Furthermore, I am not, nor the vast majority of the American people, in the military, so who is CIC has no relation to us.

Actually, I strongly suspect the BushCheneyHalliburton haters here will just continue their Jane Fonda imitations.

How long are you going to continue your Fonda imitation?. You've already admitted to being a traitor to the USA. How long will your loyalty to the politician in the white house trump your loyalty to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the nation?
 
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We are at war, like it or not. Neither the 'constitution' nor the 'nation' are CIC; at the moment, Bush is.

If one feels he should be impeached, one should begin those efforts. Or if that isn't appealing, armed revolt is one's final remedy.

Actually, I strongly suspect the BushCheneyHalliburton haters here will just continue their Jane Fonda imitations.
Yes, we are at war, like it or not.

And loyalty to the fools who began, mismanaged, and continue to mismanage this war is sheer folly.

I do feel Bush should be impeached, and I am active in the effort to have him impeached.

Bush and his yes-men would have us believe that there are 2 choices -- follow their bungling, or "cut and run". Fortunately, this is not so.

Unfortunately, they have by now gotten us so deeply into this mess that there appears to be no good solution left -- we can only hope to mitigate the damage. That's what happens when inexperienced, idealistic, religiously zealous, politically dogmatic civilians overrule the best judgments of experienced military leaders like Eric Shinseki.

You are certainly free to call people "haters", and evoke the ghost of Hanoi Jane, and thereby avoid considering the reality of the current situation. But I am not obliged to put on your blinkers and merely follow the ass of the dog in front of me.
 
I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic.
Kevin Tillman, Army Ranger. An America Hater? No. Not likely.
He was being sarcastic, DR. "Why do you hate America" is Tony's standard (and intended to be humorous) response to anyone who criticizes Bush or anything the US government does. It is a parody of the response of some right wingers, not you (since you're not really right wing), but the kind who say the Dixie Chicks hate America, simply because they criticized the president. I think you will agree that the people he is parodying do actually exist.
 
No, "we" are not.
Are you a US citizen?

Nonsense, Bush is CIC because the constution delegates that role to the president. Furthermore, I, nor the vast majority of the American people, are not in the military, so who is CIC has no relation to us.
There are ways you could personally test that hypothesis. I doubt you will.


piggy said:
But I am not obliged to put on your blinkers and merely follow the ass of the dog in front of me.
You, Sir, appear to prefer chasing your own tail.
 
Are you a US citizen?

Yes. I'm still not at war, and neither are you. You're a coward blustering behing the safety of his keyboard.

There are ways you could personally test that hypothesis. I doubt you will.

You apparently suffer under the delusion that the president is a dictator. Like it or not, the president's power as CIC gives him no special authority over civilians. You can always cast a write-in vote for Kim Jong Ill if you want such a leader.
 
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wait a sec, Pat was killed in Afghanistan

Are there really those who think we shouldnt be THERE???

I understand the iraq war resistance, but Afghanistan?
 
I do feel Bush should be impeached, and I am active in the effort to have him impeached.
Though I agree with most of your points, I differ with you here. The two times a president has been impeached, it has had a very detrimental effect upon the country. It forces people to choose a side, rather than allowing them to respond to specific issues.

I don't want Bush impeached. I want to see him made impotent (politically), embarassed, humiliated and disgraced. I want his brand of politics and governing to be an anathema to all politicians. I want his party to lose respect and power as a result of his actions, ensuring that they will never again think of nominating a person with such characteristics.

But not impeached. That would make him a martyr. I want him to be a bad example to remind us to never do this again.
 

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