influenza's achilles heel?

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091029125538.htm

I wonder if simply drinking and eating them offers any protection?

On a side note, I have been unable to find the swine flu vaccine... but I can get the seasonal one.. will it offer some kind of protection? From scattered reports here and there it seems (to me) that older people is not so prone to die from this new flu because they have immunity against several other (seasonal) flu's, I believe I have read also that people who recover from swine flu usually have the seasonal flu vaccine. Any comments regarding this?

 

[Dymanic]

I find the pull quote: "as Thanksgiving approaches, this discovery is another reason to drink red wine to your health" to be as ambitious as the title itself, "Scientists Discover Influenza's Achilles Heel: Antioxidants".

If you allow yourself to be easily impressed by such creative overinterpretations, you'll be running around in about nine different directions. Drink a glass of red wine if you want. Eat some chicken soup. Pop a couple of vitamin D pills. Purple vegetables. Selenium. Statins. Whatever. Just don't get all excited about the possibility that any of those things are going to make much difference when it comes to the duration or severity of a bout with the flu. Maybe, but the evidence just isn't enough to support strong conclusions, no matter how high the hopes of some researchers may be or how hard some reporter flogs the results of their work.

It's "infotainment".

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I'm asking impressions, when did I say that I believed the article? All I wonder if a diet full with antioxidants offer protection or not, generally speaking.

 

[Perpetual Student]

I'm asking impressions, when did I say that I believed the article? ...

You didn't, but many posters here prefer to respond in a disparaging manner when non-conventional questions are asked. The researchers may have come across an interesting effect of antioxidants. Obviously, more research will be needed to determine if a genuinely useful effect has been discovered here. In the meantime, an antioxidant rich diet does not appear to be harmful and could be a factor in promoting heath.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Thanks Perpetual Student, yes that's the answer I was looking for, and in general if merely having a diet full of them have been proved to be good in terms of fighting against flu's in general.

That said, my second question remains unsolved. Are there any grounds to believe that having a shot for the seasonal flu offer protection against the new H1N1? is it safe to believe that having it will diminish the probabilities of having a nasty flu or even death?

 

[Perpetual Student]

Thanks Perpetual Student, yes that's the answer I was looking for, and in general if merely having a diet full of them have been proved to be good in terms of fighting against flu's in general.

That said, my second question remains unsolved. Are there any grounds to believe that having a shot for the seasonal flu offer protection against the new H1N1? is it safe to believe that having it will diminish the probabilities of having a nasty flu or even death?

That's an interesting question that I have pondered myself. I have had flu shots regularly for at least two decades now. Having been exposed to so many flu virus variations by now, would I have a greater chance of immunity to H1N1 as well as other future flu viruses?

 

[GreNME]

You didn't, but many posters here prefer to respond in a disparaging manner when non-conventional questions are asked. The researchers may have come across an interesting effect of antioxidants. Obviously, more research will be needed to determine if a genuinely useful effect has been discovered here. In the meantime, an antioxidant rich diet does not appear to be harmful and could be a factor in promoting heath.

That's a disingenuous interpretation of the issue. As far as modern health science is aware, antioxidants do provide at least some benefit, though the limits of their prophylactic or as-treatment abilities is as-yet limited or unknown. In addition, it's also known that wine, while having plenty of variety of antioxidants, isn't necessarily as rich a source of them as, say, eating grapes.

The takeaway from the article is that antioxidants may have a higher bar than conventionally estimated as a prophylactic measure, but it doesn't necessarily replace the efficacy of things like vaccines for infections like H1N1. It's a fairly complex way of indicating how eating healthy does make one healthier overall, in that it equips the body with better tools for continued operation and resistance to sickness.

 

[fls]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091029125538.htm

I wonder if simply drinking and eating them offers any protection?

You should assume that it doesn't for a few reasons. The number of these highly preliminary findings that lead to nothing far exceed the number which go on to provide us with effective preventatives. The idea that they may provide protection may lead you to take risks you wouldn't otherwise and so lead to an overall increase in your risk. We can only afford so much attention and wasting some of that on something with unknown effectiveness may not allow us to pursue something with known effectiveness.

Also, the use of anti-oxidants is not without risk. A systematic review of anti-oxidant trials showed an increase in mortality with the use of anti-oxidant supplementation.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/jama;297/8/842

Linda

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

The takeaway from the article is that antioxidants may have a higher bar than conventionally estimated as a prophylactic measure, but it doesn't necessarily replace the efficacy of things like vaccines for infections like H1N1. It's a fairly complex way of indicating how eating healthy does make one healthier overall, in that it equips the body with better tools for continued operation and resistance to sickness.

That's my reading too. I wonder who would believe that if I cite the article I am against vaccines???? specially when later I say that I have been unable to find a way to get the vaccine! I want the vaccine! but if I can't get my hands on it I want to be fully informed on anything that might help, no matter if it helps a little. Having a moderate flu is better than having a strong one.. isn't it?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Vaccination is the flu's achilles heel. Anything else allows you to play host still.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

The idea that they may provide protection may lead you to take risks you wouldn't otherwise and so lead to an overall increase in your risk. We can only afford so much attention and wasting some of that on something with unknown effectiveness may not allow us to pursue something with known effectiveness.

Again, non sequitur. I'm not distracted I want the vaccine, can you get it for me? If not, what's wrong in informing oneself with any possible good measure one can take?

Also, the use of anti-oxidants is not without risk. A systematic review of anti-oxidant trials showed an increase in mortality with the use of anti-oxidant supplementation.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/jama;297/8/842

Linda

I read the paper, it never mentions anything about the flu, so I wonder, if I can't get the vaccine, but eat healthy, maybe have a couple of antioxidant complements, and get the seasonal flu vaccine, I guess my organism will be better prepared. That's all. Will you say that this is reasonable?

 

[GreNME]

That's my reading too. I wonder who would believe that if I cite the article I am against vaccines???? specially when later I say that I have been unable to find a way to get the vaccine! I want the vaccine! but if I can't get my hands on it I want to be fully informed on anything that might help, no matter if it helps a little. Having a moderate flu is better than having a strong one.. isn't it?

Having a moderate infection is preferable to a severe one, yes. Also, it's nice to have as many lines of defense as possible/reasonable/rational. Just as long as "a little" is kept in mind in much the same way that one might suggest eating healthy foods or exercising regularly isn't going to be helpful after one is sick.

I think some are cautious about this due to some groups (like Scientologists) believing that vitamin overdoses and sweat-rooms somehow have the same effect as treatment, when there is nothing to suggest their efficacy above placebo (or luck).

ETA: and I say this as someone who suggests exercise and plenty of vitamins to those who are dealing with melancholy or the effects of SAD, even though I fully recognize the limitations of both in that they cannot replace medical assistance where needed.

 

[ExMinister]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091029125538.htm

On a side note, I have been unable to find the swine flu vaccine... but I can get the seasonal one.. will it offer some kind of protection? From scattered reports here and there it seems (to me) that older people is not so prone to die from this new flu because they have immunity against several other (seasonal) flu's, I believe I have read also that people who recover from swine flu usually have the seasonal flu vaccine. Any comments regarding this?

As far as I can tell, the answer to your second question is no. From the WHO web site: http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swin...preparedness/seasonal_influenza/en/index.html

Will current seasonal influenza vaccines offer any protection against pandemic influenza infection?
So far, evidence suggests that current seasonal influenza vaccines will not be protective against pandemic influenza.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Besides I'm doing a bit of research about antioxidants, and seems to me that even if they don't offer any significant or measurable protection against flu, having a diet rich on apples, chocolate (btw by far the best source of antioxidants according to what I have seen), blueberries, beans, coffee, green tea and such things... will not hurt.


Now, about the possible benefits of having the seasonal vaccine shot.. will it offer some protection against the H1N1?

 

[Perpetual Student]

That's a disingenuous interpretation of the issue.
...

Disingenuous? Have you read my mind?
Why all the irrelevant provocation and petulance? You would be better served to make your comments in a straightforward manner without the useless personal jibes.
Like all research of novel ideas, it has only a small chance of leading anywhere, but if researchers don't probe new areas, little progress would be made in science.

 

[Dymanic]

I'm asking impressions, when did I say that I believed the article? All I wonder if a diet full with antioxidants offer protection or not, generally speaking.

Generally speaking, maybe.

And I wasn't assuming that you "believed" the article. Without getting into whether it's a matter of "belief", the fact that you began with "I wonder if..." suggests that you do not. But there is suddenly a plethora of this sort of thing, and at some point it does get a little annoying. That's not on you, of course; if anyone is to be disparaged it is the "science reporters" who so eagerly overstate the facts. Maybe even they should not be judged too harshly -- after all, they're just trying to earn a living. I just can't help but wish they would take a little more care. I also wonder how many people who find themselves suddenly fascinated by such arcana will continue to be interested once the current epidemiological event has run its course. (One question the article raises for me is why the M2 inhibitors amandatine and rimantadine would not be as effective or more effective against the cytotoxic effects of the M2 protein than antioxidants).

As for the matter of the seasonal vaccine providing protection against the pandemic strain, the general consensus is that it does not, but there have been some studies that reached conflicting results (one even suggesting the possibility that the seasonal vax may increase susceptibility to the novel strain, results which, it has been argued, some public health officials in Canada may have been a bit hasty in accepting).

 

[Eos of the Eons]

The h1n1 strain in the yearly vaccine is not the pandemic strain. It will not protect you from the pandemic flu currently going around as the main strain people are getting this year.

We have the flu in our house this week, but I have no way of knowing which strain we got infected with. The shots were out just last week, with long long long line ups making it impossible to get through, not that it would have mattered, since you don't get protection caused by the vaccine until 10 days after you get the shot.

We regularly eat well, with numerous antioxidants in our diet, and I take vitamin D every day since I can't eat milk products. Didn't matter. We are not malnourished, but we still got sick. Malnourished folks are certainly facing higher risks of getting bad effects from illnesses, but not being malnourished won't prevent you from hosting the flu bug when you are exposed.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Vaccination is the flu's achilles heel. Anything else allows you to play host still.

Granted, now, I want it, do you have a shot for me?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Granted, now, I want it, do you have a shot for me?

Me first! It's too late for us for some strain, but hopefully getting vaccinated will help to keep us from getting any others. Being sick sucks! All we could do too, was not be malnourised for now, sighs.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I think some are cautious about this due to some groups (like Scientologists) believing that vitamin overdoses and sweat-rooms somehow have the same effect as treatment, when there is nothing to suggest their efficacy above placebo (or luck).

I see. How sad is that the JREF is so full of overreacting people. Not everyone asking some question is a scientologist, or a believer on voodoo... if you are assaulted even before your intentions are known, what's the purpose of the forums.. to learn.. or to automatically bash???