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****** in the woodpile.

When I was in England in the 1970s, I was asked by at least 4-5 people (men and women, but all university-educated, intelligent folks), if it was true that the n-word was considered taboo in polite conversation in the US. Their baffled replies to my affirmative were mostly along the lines that it was just a word. By the third time, I found how to express it. How would they like being associated by people with someone like Andy Capp? Well, of course they were appalled and I said that's the kind of person who uses the n-word in the US.

I have heard the expression about one in the woodpile, but I don't even know what it means, that's how archaic it is here.
 
Censoring Mark Twain is pretty ridiculous. But there's no reason to use one of the most offensive terms in the English language casually. This particular idea could have been expressed just as clearly by saying something like "the rat in in the woodpile." Suspending the woman is probably necessary to prevent a backlash against the whole party. But she'll apologize, get reinstated, and in a couple weeks the whole thing will blow over.
 
Bob001 said:
Censoring Mark Twain is pretty ridiculous. But there's no reason to use one of the most offensive terms in the English language casually. This particular idea could have been expressed just as clearly by saying something like "the rat in in the woodpile." Suspending the woman is probably necessary to prevent a backlash against the whole party. But she'll apologize, get reinstated, and in a couple weeks the whole thing will blow over.
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"Rat in the woodpile" is not now and never has been, a common expression, AFAIK, and the words used do have a fairly specific meaning. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a similar metaphor; spanner-in-the-works for example, doesn't really match what I think she was trying to say here.

FWIW, I last heard someone use that phrase in 2001, whilst on a training course, funnily enough just as a black colleague (the trainer was white) was entering the room. It wasn't a big deal in that particularly situation, for whatever reason. But on the whole, I can't imagine someone using it today without causing significant offence.
 
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commandlinegamer said:
"Rat in the woodpile" is not now and never has been, a common expression, AFAIK, and the words used do have a fairly specific meaning. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a similar metaphor; spanner-in-the-works for example, doesn't really match what I think she was trying to say here.

FWIW, I last heard someone use that phrase in 2001, whilst on a training course, funnily enough just as a black colleague (the trainer was white) was entering the room. It wasn't a big deal in that particularly situation, for whatever reason. But on the whole, I can't imagine someone using it today without causing significant offence.
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I would have said "Turd in the Punchbowl" carries pretty much the same meaning, and has the added benefit of being slightly off colour too, so can be used in after dinner speeches at golf clubs if there are journalists present and you can't say ******.
 
Guybrush Threepwood said:
I would have said "Turd in the Punchbowl" carries pretty much the same meaning, and has the added benefit of being slightly off colour too, so can be used in after dinner speeches at golf clubs if there are journalists present and you can't say ******.
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Or to keep it a bit more classy, "fly in the ointment"? Wiki says that Agatha Christie substituted the n*** expression with that in one of her novels.

I'm surprised that an American, antebellum-South expression got that much traction in the UK. In 2008, Cameron sacked a Tory peer who used the expression as well.
 
These are all great posts thank you.
Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me.

Maybe words do hurt, but unspecified targets might be differentiated. How would Michelle Obama (probable leader at some time in the future of a world described stylistacally as free) enter this discussion?
 
Samson said:
Should Theresa May suspend an MP for employing this durable colloquialism?
How will ISF treat this thread? I hope it is OK here, I have always been fascinated by the censorship of Mark Twain
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Can you give examples of the use of the expression which have been censored in Twain? Was Twain, for example in Huckleberry Finn, not merely transcribing the words used in the ordinary speech of the people described in that book?

But I don't think that ****** is a normal expression in the ranks of the modern Conservative Party.
 
Samson said:
Should Theresa May suspend an MP for employing this durable colloquialism?
How will ISF treat this thread? I hope it is OK here, I have always been fascinated by the censorship of Mark Twain.
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Clearly she needs to be treated as a historical artifact and not one who is involved in the modern world.
 
Guybrush Threepwood said:
I would have said "Turd in the Punchbowl" carries pretty much the same meaning, and has the added benefit of being slightly off colour too, so can be used in after dinner speeches at golf clubs if there are journalists present and you can't say ******.
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That one is an excellent functional substitute!!! Whereas the rat one is really pretty much meaningless for the purpose of such description as rats are normally quite likely to hide in woodpiles or similar!!!
 
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My understanding is that the expression was more accurately: "the ******" in the woodshed" and implied a secret past sexual liaison leading to a "tainting" of one's gene pool. It is therefore manages to be racist and deeply offensive at multiple levels.

As to the OP- yes, suspending the MP would be the minimum I would see as appropriate. What one blurts out reflects what is rattling around one's head.
 
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I have heard my grandmother use it. We were watching a TV drama (it may have been a murder mystery - perhaps Miss Marple or something like that) about 25 or 30 years ago, and when she thought she knew who the murderer was she blurted out, "There's the ****** in the woodpile!"

She wasn't trolling us - we assumed it was oldspeak and passed over the incident in silence.
 
Bob001 said:
Censoring Mark Twain is pretty ridiculous. But there's no reason to use one of the most offensive terms in the English language casually. This particular idea could have been expressed just as clearly by saying something like "the rat in in the woodpile." Suspending the woman is probably necessary to prevent a backlash against the whole party. But she'll apologize, get reinstated, and in a couple weeks the whole thing will blow over.
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I don't know if you could get away with that. There are those who don't like the child's rhyme, "Eenie meanie minie moe. Catch a tiger by it's toe. If he hollers, let him go." because apparently "tiger" wasn't the original word.
 
Beerina said:
I don't know if you could get away with that. There are those who don't like the child's rhyme, "Eenie meanie minie moe. Catch a tiger by it's toe. If he hollers, let him go." because apparently "tiger" wasn't the original word.
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That's nothing compared to the grievous use of the apostrophe in the possessive pronoun.

But maybe she would have got away with it if she had said, "tiger in the woodpile" and gave a sly wink.
 
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Beerina said:
I don't know if you could get away with that. There are those who don't like the child's rhyme, "Eenie meanie minie moe. Catch a tiger by it's toe. If he hollers, let him go." because apparently "tiger" wasn't the original word.
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Not apparently, Definitely.
 
Craig B said:
Can you give examples of the use of the expression which have been censored in Twain? Was Twain, for example in Huckleberry Finn, not merely transcribing the words used in the ordinary speech of the people described in that book?
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Not sure what you're asking. "Huckleberry Finn" has been censored in some circles, or banned from school classes. Ridiculous, but true.
https://nypost.com/2015/12/14/schoo...us-novel-because-students-felt-uncomfortable/
https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2011/jan/05/censoring-mark-twain-n-word-unacceptable
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/06/watkins.twain.nword/index.html
 
commandlinegamer said:
"Rat in the woodpile" is not now and never has been, a common expression, AFAIK, and the words used do have a fairly specific meaning. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a similar metaphor; spanner-in-the-works for example, doesn't really match what I think she was trying to say here.
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I think the idea is along the lines of "unanticipated, unwelcome surprise." Like an "unknown unknown." Maybe the speaker could make a new phrase: "Rat in the garbage can?" "Snake in the tent?" Etc.

Interestingly, there's a whole wiki page on the phrase.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******_in_the_woodpile
 
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