I'm wavering from Libertarianism

[YeahDude]

Sorry for this general political post, but I feel I needed to do this.

I was raised in a republican household. Both of my parents vehemently voted republican. I thought I was a republican until I was 21 years old. I voted for George W. Bush! I liked what he had to say, I paid attention (Or so I thought). Soon after the election Former President Bush decided not to follow through with many/any of his campaign promises. This was my first view of the real world of politics. These politicans really don't care about us. That's when I found the Libertarian Party.

Reading their ideals and platform was amazing to me. It felt so right. Downsize government, keep as much power out of their hands as possible. Idealistically the Libertarians are the most logical party. Everyone is responsible for themselves. As long as you aren't really affecting someone else it is your life, and your money. The government shouldn't be in the business of charity, which on its face makes perfect sense.

I've been a registered Libertarian for 7 or so years now. I am a socially liberal person. I still believe the government getting involved in anything is a bad idea. There is too much waste in government. I think that even though the most logical choice is small government, it really isn't the best choice. I've made small changes in my views, like having a basic right of living for all Americans. This includes healthcare(In its most basic form). How can I tell a 6 year old that he can't do certain things because his parents are losers? There is a lot of government waste we could cut to fund something like this. We are one of the richest nations in the world. We can afford this.

The problem I am having is I am losing faith in people. If we cut government to its barest bones I'm afraid that most people will simply just fail. What to do? There is no ending here, this is just a rant.

 

[drkitten]

Reading their ideals and platform was amazing to me. It felt so right. Downsize government, keep as much power out of their hands as possible.

That's a great idea. The problem is that the Libertarians take it too far, and try to downsize governments beyond what is possible.

To every complicated problem there is a simple solution that just won't work. In politics, one such solution is typically a simple mantra that is applied without regard to the facts of the case. You wouldn't trust a doctor who only knew one cure (that's one sure sign of the quacks).

Libertarians and their call to cut government are one such unworkable mantra.

 

[Dragoonster]

I had similar moments, was a libertarian for a few years in my late teens, but eventually realized that it's a pretty darn cold ideology that went completely against my socialist tendencies (also believe in a right to living, provided by the government). Libertarianism is wonderful to pick and choose from, but I think it would be very bad and even immoral if implemented in its full form.

 

[geni]

The problem I am having is I am losing faith in people. If we cut government to its barest bones I'm afraid that most people will simply just fail. What to do? There is no ending here, this is just a rant.

Try and find the size of goverment that provides the best balance between supporting it's citizens and cost.

 

[Denver]

Einstein had a quote that I think applies well here:

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."

 

[YeahDude]

That's a great idea. The problem is that the Libertarians take it too far, and try to downsize governments beyond what is possible.

To every complicated problem there is a simple solution that just won't work. In politics, one such solution is typically a simple mantra that is applied without regard to the facts of the case. You wouldn't trust a doctor who only knew one cure (that's one sure sign of the quacks).

Libertarians and their call to cut government are one such unworkable mantra.

This is the point I'm coming to, I don't see how his could possibe work.

 

[YeahDude]

I had similar moments, was a libertarian for a few years in my late teens, but eventually realized that it's a pretty darn cold ideology that went completely against my socialist tendencies (also believe in a right to living, provided by the government). Libertarianism is wonderful to pick and choose from, but I think it would be very bad and even immoral if implemented in its full form.

So how do you lean? Do you normally vote democratic? I fear I'll end up there someday. At this point in my life I don't see myself voting democrat. I KNOW I will never(By never I mean as far as I can see) vote republican. That party has turned into some weird christian fundamentalist dictatorship. There is no party for me right now. I will be voting For Randi until I figure it out.

 

[YeahDude]

Try and find the size of goverment that provides the best balance between supporting it's citizens and cost.

That's a hard one to do. There isn't a party that fits my mold right now. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[YeahDude]

Einstein had a quote that I think applies well here:

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."

Serious question. Is that a real quote or like the quote the christians attribute to him believing in the christian god.

 

[geni]

Serious question. Is that a real quote or like the quote the christians attribute to him believing in the christian god.

It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.

"On the Method of Theoretical Physics" The Herbert Spencer Lecture, delivered at Oxford (10 June 1933)

 

[volatile]

So how do you lean? Do you normally vote democratic? I fear I'll end up there someday.

Why do you "fear" voting for a party that better reflects the views you have reached after careful consideration?

 

[geni]

That's a hard one to do. There isn't a party that fits my mold right now. I'm open to suggestions.

Why does their have to be a party? Work out your political position then start worrying about which party comes closest when elections come around. Which is still over a year away.

 

[Dragoonster]

So how do you lean? Do you normally vote democratic? I fear I'll end up there someday. At this point in my life I don't see myself voting democrat. I KNOW I will never(By never I mean as far as I can see) vote republican. That party has turned into some weird christian fundamentalist dictatorship. There is no party for me right now. I will be voting For Randi until I figure it out.

I'm mostly liberal, always have been, but haven't ever been "exclusive". Have voted for all parties, each time it just depends entirely on the candidates. Each party has crap candidates and more reasonable ones, so I just compare the two (or third parties too). Maybe it's also because I can see at least some value in most politicians because my positions are kind of eclectic: Pro-choice, pro-drug legalization, anti-gun control, pro-defense, anti-war, anti-Israel (as far as giving them money), pro-death penalty, pro-welfare, anti-affirmative action, pro-gay rights, anti-illegal immigration...

Since no party or single candidate agrees with me on all of these I don't see why I should be a party-liner for any of them. Plus of course most politicians are sell-outs or morons. I vote by issue by candidate I guess, trying to prioritize what's most important at the time.

Have never voted for Randi, though I did vote for Larry Flynt!

 

[Chaos]

Serious question. Is that a real quote or like the quote the christians attribute to him believing in the christian god.

According to Wikiquote, it´s a variation of an, admittedly rather unwieldy, longer quote:

It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

Scroll down to the picture of the double helix structure, maybe 1/5 of the way down the page.

 

[psychictv]

How can I tell a 6 year old that he can't do certain things because his parents are losers?

You've made some progress. Now the next step is for you to realize that just because somebody can't afford health care doesn't mean they're a "loser."

 

[Cain]

I fear I'll [vote Democratic] someday.

Brink Lindsay, a self-described liberaltarian has made a similar transition. He's still a professional libertarian (works for the Cato Institute) but he says he's "thrown in the towel" on health care -- meaning, people are entitled to basic services. How this services are delivered is another matter (naturally he favors a market approach), but he agrees with the essential point that something must be done, even if it means using tax revenue (oh noes, redistributionism!).

 

[Thunder]

The problem I am having is I am losing faith in people. If we cut government to its barest bones I'm afraid that most people will simply just fail. What to do? There is no ending here, this is just a rant.

Human beings are naturally and inherently flawed and selfish. Only when we work together can we seem to get ourselves to do what is right and not rip each others hair out.

That said, I believe all societies need to find a fine balance between the right to freedom and the need not kill each other or let our fellow man die in the street.

Where churches, non-profits, and private buisness can do a good job, they should be allowed to and government should stay out of the way.

But when these groups prove to be unable to provide the necessary services to keep people healthy, safe, educated, housed, and clean, then government has to step in.

IMHO.

 

[drkitten]

You've made some progress. Now the next step is for you to realize that just because somebody can't afford health care doesn't mean they're a "loser."

Bingo. Sometimes bad things happen to bad people. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Sometimes good people get hurt because bad things happen to OTHER good people.

And sometimes good people need to set up a system to help other good people through bad things.

 

[Thunder]

Bingo. Sometimes bad things happen to bad people. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Sometimes good people get hurt because bad things happen to OTHER good people.

And sometimes good people need to set up a system to help other good people through bad things.

and sometimes bad things happen to very good people for no damn good reason.

unless you believe in predestination, whereby good fortune or bad fortune is God's will and human intervention is rebellion against God, its ok for human beings to set up systems to help out other human beings.

or, we can just let people die in the street and kids go hungry and sick.

perhaps, we should divide the USA into two societies: one truly Libertarian, where everyone is on their own and only the strong survive, and another Social-democratic, where a strong welfare state protects everyone from rough times.

then, after 50 years, compare both societies and see how they compare.

 

[†= Crap!]

Even though I'm well to the left on the political spectrum, I've always been sympathetic to right-wing libertarianism, even on many economic issues.

There is a crude definition of libertarianism that states it is socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Even though libertarians and liberals may have superficial similarities on some social issues, there is a fundamentally different philosophy behind those similarities.

On social issues, I find my thinking is much more akin to that of libertarians than to liberals.

The main reason I just can't get behind right-wing libertarianism is that I have no faith in the "free-market"(a pretty major sticking point). I see no reason to believe the "free-market" necessarily produces the best, or even acceptable, solutions to many human problems. And given that I value large technologically advanced modern societies, I think we need rather large complicated government institutions to provide the infrastructures, industry regulations, and social services that the "market" fails to.

I just don't think you can run a large complex modern society with the small simple night-watchmen type government that libertarians and some conservatives pine for. Would be nice if you could, but I think that's just fantasy.

So I've occasionally defined my politics as socially libertarian and fiscally social.