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Ignorance and eternal punishment

pharphis

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Not sure what denomination or set of denominations this is, but I've spoken to Christians who believe that those who are completely ignorant of the bible and god will NOT go to hell, whereas anyone else will if they aren't "saved" through Jesus.

What I'm wondering is IF there are any of those Christians here (or those in other faiths with similar beliefs) then I'd like to know your opinion on the following hypothetical (those who have conducted this thought experiment are free to share their thoughts as well):

Destroy every bible (or other whichever holy book) to save all or most of humanity after a generation or two.

I'm not personally a fan of the idea because I don't believe in heaven/hell or anything similar to begin with, so don't take this as an endorsement. I do think it's a useful thought experiment, though, and the one person I can remember asking never answered me.

Thanks for your thoughts
 
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Not a practicing Christian myself, obviously, but not going to Hell due to ignorance is not the same thing as going to Heaven.
 
Aren't both heaven and hell anyway apocrypha and tacked on myths ? AFAIK there is no hell in the bible per say , just fiery lack of sulfur without naming it hell (or fiery furnace) and in all practical purpose the dead should "sleep" (sheol - sleep of the dead) it was just changed later text to hades in NT AFAIK. Anyway my understanding is that originally the "good" christian were supposed to sleep until the apocalypse where they are resurrected and go to jesus side or something.

I could eb wrong tho, bible myth can be so contradictory and confusing at time.
 
I like it. Christians should display their faith by acting to save billions of souls at cost of their own. The only way is to terminate all Christianity asap.
 
Not sure what denomination or set of denominations this is, but I've spoken to Christians who believe that those who are completely ignorant of the bible and god will NOT go to hell, whereas anyone else will if they aren't "saved" through Jesus.
That was not the traditional doctrine of the RCC. If you weren't baptised you were damned, and that was that. Here's Saint Francis Xavier describing his missionary work in Japan, in a letter he sent to his Jesuit brothers back home.

One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment.​

These forefathers and dead children were "completely ignorant of the bible and God" but it availed them not. Off to hell they went. Or so taught Francis Xavier.
 
Not sure what denomination or set of denominations this is, but I've spoken to Christians who believe that those who are completely ignorant of the bible and god will NOT go to hell, whereas anyone else will if they aren't "saved" through Jesus.

What I'm wondering is IF there are any of those Christians here (or those in other faiths with similar beliefs) then I'd like to know your opinion on the following hypothetical (those who have conducted this thought experiment are free to share their thoughts as well):

Destroy every bible (or other whichever holy book) to save all or most of humanity after a generation or two.

I'm not personally a fan of the idea because I don't believe in heaven/hell or anything similar to begin with, so don't take this as an endorsement. I do think it's a useful thought experiment, though, and the one person I can remember asking never answered me.

Thanks for your thoughts
As I understand it, those with this belief don't believe they will go to hell but they don't go to heaven either. The are in Limbo. Those in Limbo are not 'saved'
 
Not sure what denomination or set of denominations this is, but I've spoken to Christians who believe that those who are completely ignorant of the bible and god will NOT go to hell, whereas anyone else will if they aren't "saved" through Jesus.

What I'm wondering is IF there are any of those Christians here (or those in other faiths with similar beliefs) then I'd like to know your opinion on the following hypothetical (those who have conducted this thought experiment are free to share their thoughts as well):

Destroy every bible (or other whichever holy book) to save all or most of humanity after a generation or two.

I'm not personally a fan of the idea because I don't believe in heaven/hell or anything similar to begin with, so don't take this as an endorsement. I do think it's a useful thought experiment, though, and the one person I can remember asking never answered me.

Thanks for your thoughts

I have found that most Christians (even their priests and such) are woefully ignorant of the Bible and the basic points of their mythology.

Therefore, it is quite normal for one to see rather substantial flaws in their poorly understood, but deeply felt, mythology.
 
Not a practicing Christian myself, obviously, but not going to Hell due to ignorance is not the same thing as going to Heaven.

Oh, sure. I didn't mean to imply that it was the only belief but I might have done so and I retract.

Still, the question remains for those who believe that one's eternal treatment depends on their lack of ignorance or lack of ignorance.
 
As I understand it, those with this belief don't believe they will go to hell but they don't go to heaven either. The are in Limbo. Those in Limbo are not 'saved'
Even eternal truths change. From "wiki news"

Friday, April 20, 2007

"Jesus in Limbo" by Domenico Beccafumi.
The Vatican has abolished limbo, which, according to the Roman Catholic belief, is a permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, without having committed any personal sins, but without having been freed from original sin, or in some cases abortion.

Pope Benedict XVI, a theologian, showed doubt about the concept of limbo. He cited his concerns about it when he was a cardinal.

"The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation."​
 
When I was a kid, in the 50s and early 60s, the Catholic church was still holding on to the idea of "Limbo" for I guess what you'd call the "righteous but not Catholic".
This would include "innocents" who died sans Baptism, and perhaps ignorant indigenous folks who had never been exposed to the Good News.
I envisioned it as a very odd place, populated by babies crawling around and occasional very confused primitives...

I suppose they were forced to come up with the idea due to the logical problems. You needed to be "saved" to gain Heaven, but obviously it was unjust to condemn the innocent to Hell just because of circumstance.

I have speculated before that from the time that JC snuffed it for our sins, many millions (and likely billions) of people all over the world have died in utter ignorance of Jesus or Christianity. Seems to me that if God had wanted to make Heaven conditional on hearing (and accepting) the Good News....He would have made a better effort to get the word out.
 
When I was a kid, in the 50s and early 60s, the Catholic church was still holding on to the idea of "Limbo" for I guess what you'd call the "righteous but not Catholic".
This would include "innocents" who died sans Baptism, and perhaps ignorant indigenous folks who had never been exposed to the Good News.
I envisioned it as a very odd place, populated by babies crawling around and occasional very confused primitives...

I suppose they were forced to come up with the idea due to the logical problems. You needed to be "saved" to gain Heaven, but obviously it was unjust to condemn the innocent to Hell just because of circumstance.

I have speculated before that from the time that JC snuffed it for our sins, many millions (and likely billions) of people all over the world have died in utter ignorance of Jesus or Christianity. Seems to me that if God had wanted to make Heaven conditional on hearing (and accepting) the Good News....He would have made a better effort to get the word out.

Jesus died for our sins but only if you know and love him otherwise it's Hell for you.
 
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?' Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.' Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/anniedilla131195.html#y6yKzjDkk61mZ1FX.99

btw nobody is in heaven or hell now [under the book's rules]
as the trump and judgement day have not happened yet :jaw-dropp

there are 3 guys the ''E'' 's who god took alive up to heaven
as recorded in the book
that is all
 
Limbo's a place you lie on your back and squint at a pole pressed to your nose while saucy music plays. No wonder they cancelled it.
 
...
I have speculated before that from the time that JC snuffed it for our sins, many millions (and likely billions) of people all over the world have died in utter ignorance of Jesus or Christianity. Seems to me that if God had wanted to make Heaven conditional on hearing (and accepting) the Good News....He would have made a better effort to get the word out.


The mythical ill begotten son of a ghostly 1/3rd of the Jewish Sky Daddy did not think he was supposed to die for the sins of the gentiles.

  • Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He allegedly expressly commanded his purported disciples to only preach the kingdom of heaven only to the Jews

  • Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

He supposedly said quite clearly that the only people who know how to worship his Sky Daddy are the Jews and these are the only ones Sky Daddy wants to worship him.

  • John 4:22-23 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 
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Not sure what denomination or set of denominations this is, but I've spoken to Christians who believe that those who are completely ignorant of the bible and god will NOT go to hell, whereas anyone else will if they aren't "saved" through Jesus.
I'd be surprised if any modern denomination would put it quite like that: that people who don't know the Gospels WON'T go to hell.

Usually it is something like people who don't know the Gospels will still be judged, but based on their actions/beliefs in conformance to their better judgement, rather than based on their actions/beliefs in conformance to the Gospels. (Obviously knowing the Gospels ensure more knowledge of Heaven-driven actions/beliefs).

So such Christians don't need to be concerned: still a lot of non-Gospel readers will go to Hell!
 
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I'd be surprised if any modern denomination would put it quite like that: that people who don't know the Gospels WON'T go to hell.

Usually it is something like people who don't know the Gospels will still be judged, but based on their actions/beliefs in conformance to their better judgement, rather than based on their actions/beliefs in conformance to the Gospels. (Obviously knowing the Gospels ensure more knowledge of Heaven-driven actions/beliefs).

So such Christians don't need to be concerned: still a lot of non-Gospel readers will go to Hell!


There has been numerous Christian views on the matter of whether it is works or faith or both or none or whatever asserts the latest charlatan claiming divine knowledge given him directly from the ill begotten son of the ghostly 1/3rd of YHWH.

As far as the charlatans who fabricated the NT are concerned there are FOUR different rulings on the matter.

Christians of various denominations support one or another of the FOUR rulings.

  • Jesus_1 says works only
  • Jesus_2 says faith only
  • Paul says works count for nothing... even more so it is what god decides so even faith is not that important
  • James says that it is both works and faith but seems to think that works are more important than faith.... but just like the body and soul they go soul in body so to speak.

There is even a FIFTH method by which people can find their way to heaven which I bet would surprise many (not all mind you) Christians today.

James 2:25 informs us that even a prostitute was saved because she betrayed her country and people and helped spy for the Israelites so that they could ethnically cleanse her city and genocide her entire people (Joshua 2).​

Here are the relevant verses.

Matthew claims that Jesus says one's actions is what will determine if one goes to hell or heaven.

Matthew 25:31-46
  • 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
  • 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
  • ...
  • 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: ..........
  • 25:40 ... I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
  • 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
  • 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:..........
  • 25:45..... I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
  • 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus does however CONTRADICT what he says in Matthew 25. In the verses below Jesus seems to say that unless one believes in him they are bound to hell.... nothing about WORKS here.... it is all about FAITH IN JESUS.

  • Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall bedamned.
  • John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
  • Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
  • Mathew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And here Paul agrees with the CONTRADICTORY JESUS.... Paul too is telling us that it has NOTHING to do with works.

Moreover, Paul goes further and asserts that God decides who is damned and who is saved even before they are born so it is not even faith nor works.

It is all up to god whom he decides he wants to save and whom he elects to damn.... neither faith nor works make any difference.

Romans 9:11-16
  • 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
  • 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
  • 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
  • 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
  • 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
  • 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

But then we have here Jesus' brother James agreeing with BOTH VERSIONS OF JESUS where James says that it is both works and faith that would qualify one to heaven.

In other words James is saying that BOTH works and faith are needed.

James 2:20-26
  • 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
  • 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
  • 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
  • 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
  • 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
  • 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
  • 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

From the above (2:25) it seems that even a prostitute is saved because she betrays her country and people and helps spy for the Israelites so that they can ethnically cleanse her city and genocide her entire people.
 
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The Christian religion has never conclusively determined whether faith or works, or some combination of these, leads to salvation. To which may be added that some religions include ritual or even being unconsciously subject to ritual acts - like infant baptism - as necessary for salvation.

The reason why it can't decide is that each and every one of these criteria for salvation is morally or philosophically objectionable to the point of being ludicrous.

Now, salvation is what religion, or at least Christianity, is supposed to be all about. That no consistent account of how it might be achieved has ever been arrived at, is the greatest philosophical failing of the Christian and other religions, the issues raised by the troublesome theodicy problem perhaps excepted.
 
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The OPs suggestions would make for an interesting novel/movie. Following the actions of a secret group of monks/clerics out to remove any evidence of the existence of God/Jesus/Christianity...
 
The Christian religion has never conclusively determined whether faith or works, or some combination of these, leads to salvation.
Of course they have. Twice, in fact. The Catholics determined that both faith and works were required, while the Protestants determined that faith alone was how people were to be saved.
 

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