If you think American prisons are bad...
- Thread starter clk
- Start date
LucyR said:
Oh, you mean administer drugs to all the prisoners so they don't cause trouble? Well, my guess is that it would be expensive (the prison was built to house 360 inmates, but it houses more than 1000), and Brazil seems to be kind of a poor nation.
The reason they revolted was because they wanted a new prison director.
pffft... I wouldn't have negotiated with them. They're all a bunch of hard core criminals. I say let 'em kill each other. Negotiating with them would be like negotiating with terrorists.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
Don't you think it is a tad presumptious for you to declare that they were all "hard core criminals" and suggesting that they deserve to die (some were trying to escape the violence). Are you really that much of an expert on the Brazilian legal system as to know who goes to prison and for what crimes?clk said:
One of the things this demonstrates, in my eyes, is that "police control" (including control of prison populations) in a society not willing to resort to extreme measures (like mass executions) is heavily dependent on the consent of those being controlled.
Does't the prison population of the US number into the hundreds of thousands? Mostly able bodied males with less than fully developsed social consciences?
Can you imagine how hard it would be to control a large-scale concerted rebellion? It doesn't bear thinking about, IMO.
Graham
Does't the prison population of the US number into the hundreds of thousands? Mostly able bodied males with less than fully developsed social consciences?
Can you imagine how hard it would be to control a large-scale concerted rebellion? It doesn't bear thinking about, IMO.
Graham
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
Consider that Brazil is a country where the war on poverty includes special death squads that shoot street kids....
I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in the criminal justice system.
One wonders how much this is the case generally. The Nation just ran an article on the state prison in Azerbaizan, which is run by one of our "friendly dictators". Truly horrific conditions.
And of course we only get snippets of what goes on in mainland China.
I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in the criminal justice system.
One wonders how much this is the case generally. The Nation just ran an article on the state prison in Azerbaizan, which is run by one of our "friendly dictators". Truly horrific conditions.
And of course we only get snippets of what goes on in mainland China.
Hexxenhammer
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Yeah, I hate those Dementors. I think they're secretly in cahoots with You-Know-Who.Bikewer said:
Ian Osborne
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Hexxenhammer said:
ROFLMAO!
Tricky said:
Well, the comment was made semi-jokingly. From what I gather, the prisoners are all inside the jail, and the police have it surrounded. If that is the case, then I would not negotiate, and I would set up a blockade so that no food or water gets into the prison. Why send in your police officers to attempt to retake control when it is likely that there would be a high casualty rate? As far as I know, the prisoners are killing themselves, not innocent people, so why risk the lives of honorable police officers to save the lives of a few criminals? That's how I look at it. But instead of stating the above, I just stated the "let 'em all die" because it was late and I didn't feel like typing too much.
On a side note, I think some American prisons are too soft. I mean, some of our prisoners have TVs in their cells! I always wondered why homeless people don't commit crimes and go to jail, because frankly they would probably be better off in jail. I suppose you could say that they don't want to commit crimes and go to jail because they have ethical problems with doing that, but I find that kind of hard to believe. If I were homeless, I would be angry since all of these criminals get to go to jail where they live better lives than most homeless people. So if I were homeless, I'd go try to rob a bank...if I succeed, I'm rich. If I get caught, then oh well, I get shelter, food, water, etc. I guess they value freedom above all.
clk said:
Two points:
1) The prisoners are killing each other not themselves. There is no reason to assume that those being killed are those to the forefront of the rebellion - quite the opposite acctually, I would think.
2) Prisons really aren't that nice, for the most part. I think you should reflect on your own question - if they were that nice, homeless people would be committing crimes to go there.
Graham
Graham said:
Yes, but if it were me, I still wouldn't risk the lives of officers to go in and retake the facility
I dunno about that, Graham. Take a look at this link:
http://www.cjsonline.org/virtual/prisons/launch_prisons.html
(requires flash...probably a good idea to have a broadband connection, too)
The above link is a virtual tour of a prison. Make sure you check out the "Daily Life" section. As far as I can tell, it's a UK prison, but from what I've seen I don't think it's very different from alot of minimum security prisons.
They even have a store inside the prison where you can go to buy snacks and candy bars.
After going through the tour, I felt like going to prison. It sounds like a fun place. Where do I sign up?
crimresearch
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"Does't the prison population of the US number into the hundreds of thousands? Mostly able bodied males with less than fully developsed social consciences?"
2 million and climbing last I looked.
There is almost everything wrong, and little right about the current US prison-industrial complex, except of course compared to even worse systems.
Paul
2 million and climbing last I looked.
There is almost everything wrong, and little right about the current US prison-industrial complex, except of course compared to even worse systems.
Paul
clk said:
The above link is a virtual tour of a prison. Make sure you check out the "Daily Life" section. As far as I can tell, it's a UK prison, but from what I've seen I don't think it's very different from alot of minimum security prisons.
They even have a store inside the prison where you can go to buy snacks and candy bars.
After going through the tour, I felt like going to prison. It sounds like a fun place. Where do I sign up?
The list you gave doesn't constitute what I'd call luxury or even great comfort. Don't forget people are sent to prison AS punishment not FOR punishment. The deprivation of liberty is the punishment.
You mentioned TV's in cells earlier. I think that new UK jails have TV's installed in the cells, but I could be wrong. If so I see nothing wrong in it. It gives the prisoners something to do and something to talk about. According to a prisoner, a murderer, who wrote a series of articles in the Gaurdian, prisoners in his nick were devotees of soap operas. Note it is much, much, cheaper to provide TV's than to rebuild a trashed prison after a riot by discontented cons.
Nikk said:
I don't think it's punishment at all. These guys get food, water, shelter, education, entertainment, personal fitness trainers, games, books, etc. These 'prisons' sound more like resorts to me.
It wouldn't be a bad place to retire. If I had a choice between going to that UK prison and going to a Marine bootcamp, I'd choose prison any day of the week. Atleast you don't have drill instructors yelling at you constantly, you don't have to wake up at 4 am to go on long marches, you don't have to spend hours scrubbing the floor with a toothbrush because you had a speck of dirt on your uniform, etc.
You really don't think there's anything wrong with having TVs in cells? What liberty are these prisoners being deprived of, exactly? They're still free to do alot of things. They're not even living in isolation. If they wanted, they could spend most of their days sitting in their cells and playing boardgames with their cellmates. And if they got tired of that, they could always turn on the TV. If there's nothing on TV, they could always turn on the radio. Or they could read a book. Or they could play with their bird which is in their birdcage. Or they could go play volleyball. Or they could go play billiards. Or they could go to the prison store and buy some Snickers. Or they could go talk to your family on the phone. Yeah, they can't walk around in the free world, but who would want to when you're living in a prison like that?
clk said:
But if you join the army you CHOOSE to join the army.
To me being deprived of liberty and forced to spend several years behind bars in a regimented environment is definitely a punishment. Most people and that includes most cons seem to see it that way. Imagine being sentenced to spend 5 years locked up with all your least favourite JREF posters, pretty hellish, no?
As far as I recall the majority of prisoners in Britain suffer from some combination of mental problems, educational problems and drug problems. Making conditions more severe in jail doesn't sort these problems out nor does it seem to have much deterrent effect. Generally speaking jail is just "an expensive way of making bad people worse" and the worse the conditions the more damage imprisonment is likely to do.