I will be speaking at the Secular Life event.

[Maia]

Well, of course you know what the topic is that I picked.

Come on,guess.

The Theology of John Shelby Spong!

Wow, even I was kind of amazed at what I found when I just typed "john shelby spong heresy" into google.

 

[Supernaut454]

Well, of course you know what the topic is that I picked.

Come on,guess.

The Theology of John Shelby Spong!

Wow, even I was kind of amazed at what I found when I just typed "john shelby spong heresy" into google.

Spong is a great man! Don't always agree 100% but usually I do about 85% of the time.

What is your favorite book of his?

 

[Maia]

I really think it's his last one: Eternal Life: A New Vision, Beyond Religion, Beyond Theism, Beyond Heaven and Hell.

So here's kind of how the outline is going...

The obvious question: why talk about any bishop at a Secular Life meeting, no matter what his theology is?

Well, first of all, it's hard to resist a theologian who so many Christians hate so much. I've put together a really choice collection of quotes, and they were not hard to find. Here are some of the things that have been said:

"Blasphemous, a heretic and an enemy of Christ,” “Should be condemned by all Christians”, “I cannot bring myself to honor him with the title of bishop”,”Imposter of a bishop”, “A naughty Anglican bishop,” (!) “Clad in the uniform of an Episcopal bishop and legitimized as a direct heir of Christ’s apostles by the beleaguered Episcopal Church,” “an arch-heretic with a poisonous theology,” a heretic who chooses to destroy the foundations of the Church while being financially suckled by her,” “the man is a class A hypocrite; who, in his or her right mind, would listen to such a blithering idiot? “, “leading faithful Christians down a dark path”, according to Alister McGrath: "Spong constructs a fantasy world”, and a particularly unforgettable quote from Dave Moore on Dialogue with Heretics for Touchstone Ministries, “my anger almost caused me to punch the display of his books off the table at Barnes and Noble, but my eight-year-old stopped me.”

Tidbits from personal letters he's received include:
"Your words are not just heresy; they are apostasy. Burning you at the stake would be too kind!"

"I hope the next plane on which you fly crashes. You are not worthy of life. If all else fails, I will try to rid the world of your evil presence personally."

and, my favorite...

"Remember, as you prance about disguised as a minister of the Gospel, that you will pay for your sins eternally in the lake of fire."

There seems to be something about John Shelby Spong that causes extreme reactions, unlike anything I've seen for other "liberal Christians" or religious thinkers such as Karen Armstrong, Bart Ehrman, Matthew Fox, Marcus Borg, etc. He has a huge body of work (22 books, 90 articles), and he's spent his entire career taking up controversial causes, but I think it's much more than that.

A very brief sketch of his career here...

Going over his most important ideas here-- what makes him so controversial? Essentially taking a skeptical stance on all tenets of Christianity and saying that religion can only be based on what remains. Details are in "Twelve Thesis for the 'New Reformation' of Christianity:Why Christianity Must Change or Die."

(handouts distributed.)
(everyone eats cookies.)
(remember to buy cookies and plates... nothing stirs up meaningful discussion like cookies...)

Why this is important to secular humanists:

One point where I really disagree with JSS is in his belief that Christianity can die. For better or for worse, I just don't think it will happen, and so I can't agree with his belief that fundamentalist movements aren't important. If mainstream Christianity continues to fade out, as he says it will (and I agree), and "liberal Christianity" just sort of goes along meaninglessly while everybody sleeps through the sermons (I pretty much agree about that too), then I think that fundamentalism will increasingly take center stage, because it will be all that remains. So Christianity (and other religions) aren't going to die, but they could easily become worse and worse over time. The kind of religion that JSS envisions becomes more important than ever, because it may be the only way out of this trap.





Okay! So what do y'all think? I need input! I need opinions! Good, bad, and otherwise!

 

[Supernaut454]

I like it a lot so far! Don't forget to mention JSS's help/input with regards to the dreaded....Jesus Seminar! LOL....that was some awesome work that raised the hackles on most if not all of the fundie christians.

I do agree that fundie christianity is headed towards death...but I am inclined to believe that liberal christianity is on the rise....leaning more towards the universal slavation aspect of the liberal spectrum.

 

[Kopji]

I would have a hard time with such a topic. He asks continued obeisance for something he readily admits is bankrupt. I have difficultly with the integrity of that, no matter how much I might agree or how nice he is.

For Christians who would otherwise leave, he is prolonging their suffering. Some people would be better off just walking away and leave religion behind. Maybe not everyone, but certainly some.

 

[Maia]

I like it a lot so far! Don't forget to mention JSS's help/input with regards to the dreaded....Jesus Seminar! LOL....that was some awesome work that raised the hackles on most if not all of the fundie christians.

I do agree that fundie christianity is headed towards death...but I am inclined to believe that liberal christianity is on the rise....leaning more towards the universal slavation aspect of the liberal spectrum.

The Jesus Seminar! I do have to remember that one. Thanks SN. I hope you're right about liberal Christianity as a whole, and I think it may be true as far as what people are becoming interested in. The part that I see as problematic is what actually happens in the churches. Here's the way it goes in Nashville:

Mom: Grandma wants little Brianna to start going to church.

Dad: We're NOT taking her to the Southern Baptist church.

Mom: How about that Unity church?

Dad: It's too New Age-y.

(they run through a list of churches, all of which are rejected)

Mom (tired) Okay, let's just go to First UU.

(they go for the sole purpose of taking the kid)

 

[Kopji]

I do like the cookies idea.

Your conclusion about fundamentalism vs liberalism is probably correct. I understand it sort of like this:

A fundamentalist gets up and starts planning on how they will either win or kill you. A later focus group session might experiment on ways to achieve that. Followed by an emotional workup by flogging or screaming with like minded friends.

A liberal sleeps in, might go fishing later, has a nice dinner, and then hangs out on the internet in the evening.

Who's gonna win?

 

[Supernaut454]

The Jesus Seminar! I do have to remember that one. Thanks SN. I hope you're right about liberal Christianity as a whole, and I think it may be true as far as what people are becoming interested in. The part that I see as problematic is what actually happens in the churches. Here's the way it goes in Nashville:

Mom: Grandma wants little Brianna to start going to church.

Dad: We're NOT taking her to the Southern Baptist church.

Mom: How about that Unity church?

Dad: It's too New Age-y.

(they run through a list of churches, all of which are rejected)

Mom (tired) Okay, let's just go to First UU.

(they go for the sole purpose of taking the kid)

That is something that may evolve in time. The issue is that the churches have become so obsolete....so antiquated....and many people are reluctant to give those churches a go. Understandably so.

Most discredit the UU church based on what they have heard instead of actually giving it a shot.

There are still other options though for some who prefer a "christian" label such as the United Church of Christ. The UCC is largely considered heretical but does have the backing and support of Bishop Spong and most of the attendants of the Jesus Seminar.

Hope all goes well for you Gaia!

 

[Supernaut454]

I do like the cookies idea.

Your conclusion about fundamentalism vs liberalism is probably correct. I understand it sort of like this:

A fundamentalist gets up and starts planning on how they will either win or kill you. A later focus group session might experiment on ways to achieve that. Followed by an emotional workup by flogging or screaming with like minded friends.

A liberal sleeps in, might go fishing later, has a nice dinner, and then hangs out on the internet in the evening.

Who's gonna win?

One key ingredient to the liberal theology that you may be overlooking is the belief that works must accompany faith. With that in mind, most liberal churches focus on helping the needy versus sitting at the round table trying to figure out new conversion tactics, new methods of gay conversion therapy, or craftier signs to carry at the gay parades.