I just have to laugh,

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Brake pads on heavy equipment, especially cranes, and excavators produce micro spheres with silicon, Concrete cut off saws with Aluminum oxide and silicon binder do the same. Clutches and big truck brakes also. As well as some sand papers using silicon binders with aluminum oxide.
Iron fibers and Diatomaceous Earth are used in brake pads, on equipment and vehicles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5042991/description.html

Until site contamination is resolved the work of Dr. Steven E Jones and the other Scholars on the micro spheres is garbage Pseudo Science.

They believe solely because micro spheres are present that they indicate high temperatures, that is a false leap based solely on assumption in conditions which are not and can never be controlled to rule out possible contamination from multiple sources.

The Micro spheres might even be from the renovation following the 1993 bombing from steel cutting and hauling or from equipment operations and steel and concrete cutting during the clean up in 2001.

The micro spheres are not important unless they point to a specific source that can not be mistaken for back ground contamination, from other sources.

I would like to see more evidence of work on the micro spheres, and samples provided, however I do not expect that from the Scholars for truth at this moment.

Many micro spheres are the result of abrasive Mechanical friction on steel and not the result of the fires, that was a false assumption, which I thought I should clear up.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

I thought I read somewhere (not here) that diesel engine combustion produces a small amount of such, especially on less well maintained engines. Do you know anything about this? I'm unable to find much about it, but I haven't tried searching beyond the internet yet.

If that's correct - if - then sheer exposure from the number of buses, delivery trucks, etc. would be immense. But again, that's if.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I thought I read somewhere (not here) that diesel engine combustion produces a small amount of such, especially on less well maintained engines. Do you know anything about this? I'm unable to find much about it, but I haven't tried searching beyond the internet yet.

If that's correct - if - then sheer exposure from the number of buses, delivery trucks, etc. would be immense. But again, that's if.

Yes diesel engine exhaust does contain micro spheres, as well as the fluids contained in the engine contain them, from cavitational corrosion of the cylinder liners.

Car engines also can produce micro spheres there is no perfect system of lubrication as the piston rings wear in a car engine and carbon builds up it increases cylinder wear.
Cast steel engines and Cylinder liners are high silicon for greater hardness and less wear as well as greater heat dissipation.

The brakes on a car can though mechanical friction produce micro spheres if the car is traveling fast enough to reach the critical energy necessary when the brakes are applied.

Anything that cuts or brakes using iron and aluminum silicates or aluminum oxide and silicates, can form micro-spheres the greater the live load stopped by the breaking material the more micro-spheres produced.
Large overloaded trucks and Cranes would be a huge source of them.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Yes diesel engine exhaust does contain micro spheres, as well as the fluids contained in the engine contain them, from cavitational corrosion of the cylinder liners.

Car engines also can produce micro spheres there is no perfect system of lubrication as the piston rings wear in a car engine and carbon builds up it increases cylinder wear.
Cast steel engines and Cylinder liners are high silicon for greater hardness and less wear as well as greater heat dissipation.

The brakes on a car can though mechanical friction produce micro spheres if the car is traveling fast enough to reach the critical energy necessary when the brakes are applied.

Anything that cuts or brakes using iron and aluminum silicates or aluminum oxide and silicates, can form micro-spheres the greater the live load stopped by the breaking material the more micro-spheres produced.
Large overloaded trucks and Cranes would be a huge source of them.

My God, then. Before I read about diesel emissions and your post listing alternate sources, I didn't realize there were so many such sources for this. That means this whole "iron rich microspheres" thing is just the "sulfur-gotcha" all over again. It shouldn't be a surprise that they were found, rather, it should be a surprise that someone finds it notable.

It's like falling in a puddle and finding water. Of course it's there...

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

My God, then. Before I read about diesel emissions and your post listing alternate sources, I didn't realize there were so many such sources for this. That means this whole "iron rich microspheres" thing is just the "sulfur-gotcha" all over again. It shouldn't be a surprise that they were found, rather, it should be a surprise that someone finds it notable.

It's like falling in a puddle and finding water. Of course it's there...

IT is like finding milk on a dairy farm, and ascribing it to space aliens.

Dr. Lee made the assumption that the Micro spheres were from the fires, and Jones jumped on it, however that does not appear to be the case at all, they appear to be more of a natural phenomena associated with construction equipment and abrasive mechanical action, even elevator brakes would create them in buildings.
The brakes of trains, any mechanical device that uses friction pads that contain the materials necessary to create them.

 

[boloboffin]

It's like finding water on the road and attributing it to a fully operational hydrogen-fuel-cell engine.

 

[BenBurch]

Any speculations as to why Jones refuses to consider that his samples might be worthless?

 

[Metullus]

None that would not qualify as a breach of the membership agreement.

 

[TruthByDecree]

Brake pads on heavy equipment, especially cranes, and excavators produce micro spheres with silicon, Concrete cut off saws with Aluminum oxide and silicon binder do the same. Clutches and big truck brakes also. As well as some sand papers using silicon binders with aluminum oxide.
Iron fibers and Diatomaceous Earth are used in brake pads, on equipment and vehicles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5042991/description.html

Until site contamination is resolved the work of Dr. Steven E Jones and the other Scholars on the micro spheres is garbage Pseudo Science.

They believe solely because micro spheres are present that they indicate high temperatures, that is a false leap based solely on assumption in conditions which are not and can never be controlled to rule out possible contamination from multiple sources.

The Micro spheres might even be from the renovation following the 1993 bombing from steel cutting and hauling or from equipment operations and steel and concrete cutting during the clean up in 2001.

The micro spheres are not important unless they point to a specific source that can not be mistaken for back ground contamination, from other sources.

I would like to see more evidence of work on the micro spheres, and samples provided, however I do not expect that from the Scholars for truth at this moment.

Many micro spheres are the result of abrasive Mechanical friction on steel and not the result of the fires, that was a false assumption, which I thought I should clear up.

You just had to laugh? Wow you must be a riot at parties. Well if I get what you are trying to point out there then maybe we should look at some similar test results done before the WTC site was contaminated.

Where might one find something like that?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

You just had to laugh? Wow you must be a riot at parties. Well if I get what you are trying to point out there then maybe we should look at some similar test results done before the WTC site was contaminated.

Where might one find something like that?

Totally Irrelevant, because the moment you move in heavy equipment or begin rescue operations your going to find steel micro spheres on site.

IT is the digging and movement that makes micro spheres air born particles.

I checked the dust cover of my old ton truck and found hundreds of them from the friction clutches wear on the steel fly wheel.

The break drum on my truck was also littered with them.

My bull dozer break pads were the same as well as the steering clutches. and the clutches on my tractors were as well.
The drop of an elevator and the wear on the breaks from dropping would have created micro spheres.

Air samples prier to the collapse are totally irrelevant, because the collapse would make stationary deposits of micro spheres that had built up over months or years airborne. The use of cranes and heavy equipment would have like wise altered the environment, to increase the number of air borne particles above the base levels.

It is eventually a non issue, as the planes breaks were also probably littered with micro spheres do to using frictions pads.

Just the fire trucks responding and screeching to a halt would contaminate the site. You simply need the energy to make the particles air borne, the collapses do that nicely, the were very energetic.

 

[SpitfireIX]

[derail]Glad to see you're still with us, CC; some concern had been expressed that you might have hurt yourself with one of your experiments or demonstrations.[/derail]

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Any speculations as to why Jones refuses to consider that his samples might be worthless?

I do not think Joneses samples are worthless, however his interpretation of them certainly is, They need to be examined by a chemist with experience in this field, not by a physicist continually jumping to assumptions.
The samples might still resolve some important questions to the chemistry of the fires, However they will never do so as long as Jones has sole access to them he is merely pursuing a flawed thermite theory, and that shows in his work.

 

[beachnut]

You just had to laugh? Wow you must be a riot at parties. Well if I get what you are trying to point out there then maybe we should look at some similar test results done before the WTC site was contaminated.

Where might one find something like that?

Oh, you have some evidence the stuff Jones made up has something to do with 9/11? That is funny. Jones makes it up and people who lack knowledge to understand 9/11 lap up the false information and repeat it.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

[derail]Glad to see you're still with us, CC; some concern had been expressed that you might have hurt yourself with one of your experiments or demonstrations.[/derail]

Thanks for your concern, the rumors of my ascension to a high plane of existence though the use of high energy chemistry were quite exaggerated.

I just basically ran out of materials and funds for experiments and had to go back to work for a while to Acquire more funds for experimentation.

I am also working on a patentable device that will do what the truthers claim was done on 9/11/2001, however I want to use it for good not evil.

I am working on it as a way to save lives, not take them, a rapid rescue and work saving device.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

I do not think Joneses samples are worthless, however his interpretation of them certainly is, They need to be examined by a chemist with experience in this field, not by a physicist continually jumping to assumptions.
The samples might still resolve some important questions to the chemistry of the fires, However they will never do so as long as Jones has sole access to them he is merely pursuing a flawed thermite theory, and that shows in his work.

I agree. From what little I can tell, the spectroscopy was pretty firm work, although I'll defer to better qualified folks here (like Dr. Greening) to speak definitively towards that. It's just that, as CC says, the problem lies with what he concludes from it. His handwave is in his assertion of how the spheres formed, not that he found them to begin with.

 

[gumboot]

I always experience a flood of relief when I see a new post by CC.

-Gumboot

 

[deep]

They believe solely because micro spheres are present that they indicate high temperatures, that is a false leap based solely on assumption in conditions which are not and can never be controlled to rule out possible contamination from multiple sources.

The Micro spheres might even be from the renovation following the 1993 bombing from steel cutting and hauling or from equipment operations and steel and concrete cutting during the clean up in 2001.

The micro spheres are not important unless they point to a specific source that can not be mistaken for back ground contamination, from other sources.

You're right, there are other possible sources for the iron-rich microspheres - but that doesn't make them useless.

If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene of a crime just before the crime was committed, does that mean that the suspect is definitely guilty? No, not exactly, because it could be a coincidence. Even so, that sighting is still an important piece of evidence, because it can gain significance later on when it's combined with other evidence.

I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.

 

[BenBurch]

The debunking lies in the fact that the samples were from points some distance from the buildings and from times not proximate to the collapse and that there is no chain of custody whatsoever following collection and that there is no way, IF the dust was a product of that day's events, to tell which of the several destroyed buildings it was from!

 

[Apollo20]

Deep44:

There are certain characteristics of microspheres that would point to thermite as being the most likely source. So far Steven Jones has failed to provide X-ray spectra showing the characteristics I am refering to. (I will not say what these characteristics are - to keep Jones honest - but I have plenty of data to back-up my claim.)

Chainsaw and other posters are correct about the multiple sources of "iron-rich microspheres". They are myriad! I have also reviewed published data on airborne particulate for New York City going back to the 1970s and the years when the Twin Towers were under construction! The deposition rate for Fe onto NYC is about 400 mg/m^2/year. Jones needs to consider this dry deposition flux before he goes off claiming all sorts of things about his samples.

Until Jones is willing to provide a complete set of analytical data for a statistically significant set of WTC microspheres, he is not going to convince a jury of his peers of anything!

 

[1337m4n]

You're right, there are other possible sources for the iron-rich microspheres - but that doesn't make them useless.

If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene of a crime just before the crime was committed, does that mean that the suspect is definitely guilty? No, not exactly, because it could be a coincidence. Even so, that sighting is still an important piece of evidence, because it can gain significance later on when it's combined with other evidence.

I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.

You are familiar with some aspects of criminal trials, I assume you are also familiar with a little principle known as "innocent until proven guilty".

It means that it is not our nor anyone else's job to prove the iron-rich microspheres didn't come from thermite. I'm not sure how that's even possible since it's asking us to prove a negative. Rather it is YOUR job to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they DID come from thermite.

Like Chainsaw said. This is like finding milk on a dairy farm, and asking us to prove that it didn't come from space aliens.