• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

"How could (one person or a small group of people) pull this off?"

Allen773

Graduate Poster
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
1,743
Location
Cali Four Neea
This is a common trope of conspiracy theorists. It is especially apparent to me in the cases of the JFK assassination (which was carried out by one man) and the 9/11 attacks (which were carried out by 19 men + probably a couple dozen or so handlers in Al-Qaeda - including Osama bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - at most, quite possibly with some additional funding and assistance from certain "rogue" agents of the Saudi government and Pakistani ISI).

Basically, the theory is that such catastrophic events - whether it be the assassination of a US President or the massacre of a total of 3000 people in NYC, Arlington, VA, and Shanksville, PA via the hijacking and deliberate crashing of four domestically-operated commercial airliners - cannot be committed without the knowledge and even active assistance of the US government (and by that, they usually mean the CIA, the FBI, the so-called "Shadow Government" and/or the highest levels of certain presidential administrations e.g. the second Bush administration re: 9/11).

What these people apparently don't understand is that the US government - particularly the executive branch - is not some monolithic entity; there are many, many different departments, agencies, and other institutions (along with all of the smaller sub-departments, offices, etc. that are embedded within larger parts of the federal bureaucracy) that are all part of the US government, yet that all have their own distinct roles, regulations (from both internal and external sources), responsibilities, and objectives. Sometimes, there are many overlapping aspects to these different parts of the US government. Sometimes, there is a lot less overlap. And sometimes, you have different agencies, departments, bureaus, local offices, etc. that have vaguely defined (and thus, differentiated) rules and regulations but clearly defined objectives. Or, you may have the opposite. It really all depends, honestly. And this isn't even taking into account the fact that all of this (well, most of it - the computers are becoming more and more important in a lot of stuff ;) ) is done by human beings. You know, the same species as the assassins, terrorists, criminals, and other bad guys. Fancy that!

The main point of this thread, however, is that even if we assumed - for the sake of argument - that there was some hypothetical world where the US government was uniformally competent, efficient, and united in both its mission and its methods of carrying said mission out (and furthermore, had the ability to coordinate all of its operations), it still wouldn't have a perfect record in preventing the assassinations of high-profile government officials or deadly terrorist attacks on the homeland (let alone, overseas). And there's a very simple reason why, so simple and "common-sense" to the point of being a worn-out cliche that I am honestly surprised that CT'ers - who, of course, pride themselves on dissenting from expert opinion or mainstream explanations of seminal events in general via their "common sense" and their layman's incredulity - have yet to acknowledge it:

needle in a haystack ‎(uncountable)

(idiomatic) Something that is difficult or impossible to locate; something impossibly complex or intractable.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/needle_in_a_haystack

It's hard enough to find the one needle, or two, or three, or 19 needles that you absolutely need to (yet at the same time, you don't even know what - or rather, who - they are) in a haystack of 7 billion needles. Harder still to predict exactly what that needle (or needles) will do, when it/they will do it, where it/they will do it, and how it/they will do it (not to mention, the few other needles in that haystack of 7 billion needles that could potentially lead you to the ones that you need to find).

Oh, and I forgot to add; you are supposed to do all of this with finite resources, under often-stifling rules and regulations, among thousands of competing professional (and personal) agendas (and their associated egos), on what can only be described as borrowed time. Oops, the real world isn't a utopia. Darn!
 
Last edited:
You are essentially right . Those that are frightened that facts will upset their pre set world perspectives will produce any garbage to avoid facing the things that are so infuriating --- facts . Information on a need to know basis has been at the core of matters for thousands of years . It has now become a remarkable Art form ( False Flags are a gem ) in recent times , particularly with the help of sciences like deception , misinformation and disinformation . Separately I believe your summary explanation of the two incidents you example is over simple and itself a very poor representation of what occurred . But , regardless , I do believe that the notion that no group could have successfully / secretly carried out either operation is just plain silly.
 
Last edited:
You are essentially right . Those that are frightened that facts will upset their pre set world perspectives will produce any garbage to avoid facing the things that are so infuriating --- facts . Information on a need to know basis has been at the core of matters for thousands of years . It has now become a remarkable Art form ( False Flags are a gem ) in recent times , particularly with the help of sciences like deception , misinformation and disinformation . Separately I believe your summary explanation of the two incidents you example is over simple and itself a very poor representation of what occurred . But , regardless , I do believe that the notion that no group could have successfully / secretly carried out either operation is just plain silly.

Spectacular missing of the point.
 
As someone going into computer forensics: computers give you data, humans give you context.
 
You are essentially right . Those that are frightened that facts will upset their pre set world perspectives will produce any garbage to avoid facing the things that are so infuriating --- facts . Information on a need to know basis has been at the core of matters for thousands of years . It has now become a remarkable Art form ( False Flags are a gem ) in recent times , particularly with the help of sciences like deception , misinformation and disinformation . Separately I believe your summary explanation of the two incidents you example is over simple and itself a very poor representation of what occurred . But , regardless , I do believe that the notion that no group could have successfully / secretly carried out either operation is just plain silly.

Can you produce evidence that (we'll pick one example from the OP) that the US Government was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks?
 
Give me an AR-15 and 400 rounds and a soft target and I can make the history books. Give me 50lbs of C-4, or leave the pilot house of an ocean liner unguarded, or leave a security gate unlocked, and I can ruin your day.

All it takes is a little homework and a lot of will.

And I'm a nice guy, imagine what a not-nice person can do (assuming you never read the news papers). :thumbsup:
 
Give me an AR-15 and 400 rounds and a soft target and I can make the history books. Give me 50lbs of C-4, or leave the pilot house of an ocean liner unguarded, or leave a security gate unlocked, and I can ruin your day.

All it takes is a little homework and a lot of will.

And I'm a nice guy, imagine what a not-nice person can do (assuming you never read the news papers). :thumbsup:

Give me 20 guys and the 9/11 pre mission budget and I could shut the entire nation down in a week and bring it too a grinding halt for months. Patriarchalists attacked big-dick symbolic targets that leave 99% of Americans out of the target. About two weeks after 9/11 housewives all across small town America started to appreciate living so far from the big city excitement of Manhattan.
 
Best local scenario (Dallas) would be to flip a tanker of anhydrous ammonia on the Woodall-Rogers elevated roadway around noon some workday. All it needs is one person willing to ignore the hazardous material routing signs.

One THINKING person can do an incredible amount of damage with little material.

JFK assassination couldn't be done by one person? Hell, I've been to Dealey Plaza many times -- last weekend, for example -- and scoff at the claims of "an impossible shot." It's less than 150 yards, the limo going downhill at maybe, what, 15 miles per hour in a straight line, from an elevated shooting perch. In other words, shooting DOWN at a target going DOWN. It's not much more difficult than shooting at a paper target on a backstop from a shooting bench. Easy shot. It took three tries because of nerves.

Beanbag
 
Give me 20 guys and the 9/11 pre mission budget and I could shut the entire nation down in a week and bring it too a grinding halt for months. Patriarchalists attacked big-dick symbolic targets that leave 99% of Americans out of the target. About two weeks after 9/11 housewives all across small town America started to appreciate living so far from the big city excitement of Manhattan.
So, what are you doing this weekend?

:rolleyes:

Beanbag
 
You are essentially right . Those that are frightened that facts will upset their pre set world perspectives will produce any garbage to avoid facing the things that are so infuriating --- facts . Information on a need to know basis has been at the core of matters for thousands of years . It has now become a remarkable Art form ( False Flags are a gem ) in recent times , particularly with the help of sciences like deception , misinformation and disinformation . Separately I believe your summary explanation of the two incidents you example is over simple and itself a very poor representation of what occurred . But , regardless , I do believe that the notion that no group could have successfully / secretly carried out either operation is just plain silly.

Wow. O_o
 
The main point of this thread, however, is that even if we assumed - for the sake of argument - that there was some hypothetical world where the US government was uniformally competent, efficient, and united in both its mission and its methods of carrying said mission out (and furthermore, had the ability to coordinate all of its operations), it still wouldn't have a perfect record in preventing the assassinations of high-profile government officials or deadly terrorist attacks on the homeland (let alone, overseas). And there's a very simple reason why, so simple and "common-sense" to the point of being a worn-out cliche that I am honestly surprised that CT'ers - who, of course, pride themselves on dissenting from expert opinion or mainstream explanations of seminal events in general via their "common sense" and their layman's incredulity - have yet to acknowledge it:

Why not look at actual historical records of actual conspiracies, where some of the perpetrators were tried and convicted? That seems like a much better method for understanding these things than to simply imagine some hypotheticals.

Iran/Contra is a good example. Excellent in fact, because a lot is known about it. And those guys were all pardoned and went on to participate in multiple coups all over the world. You do know that this was real, don't you?

It falsifies your entire thesis.
 
Why not look at actual historical records of actual conspiracies, where some of the perpetrators were tried and convicted? That seems like a much better method for understanding these things than to simply imagine some hypotheticals.

Iran/Contra is a good example. Excellent in fact, because a lot is known about it. And those guys were all pardoned and went on to participate in multiple coups all over the world. You do know that this was real, don't you?

It falsifies your entire thesis.

You seem to be answering a different post to the one you've quoted. Iran/Contra says nothing about the ability of small groups or individuals to carry out attacks despite the presence of security services tasked with preventing those attacks, and so has no relevance whatsoever to the thesis you seem to think it falsifies. The answer you've given is the one you're supposed to give when someone suggests that some suggested conspiracy is too large and complex to be a sensible idea, not the one you're supposed to give when someone suggests that a pathetic nobody like Oswald could quite conceivably have killed someone as important as JFK or a group of hijackers could have escaped interception by NORAD on 9/11. Are you reading out of the wrong page of the conspiracists' handbook?

Dave
 
Why not look at actual historical records of actual conspiracies, where some of the perpetrators were tried and convicted? That seems like a much better method for understanding these things than to simply imagine some hypotheticals.

Iran/Contra is a good example. Excellent in fact, because a lot is known about it. And those guys were all pardoned and went on to participate in multiple coups all over the world. You do know that this was real, don't you?

It falsifies your entire thesis.

Actually, Iran-contra does not falsify the thesis. Iran-Contra came to light because of the actions of the US government and their Iranian conspirators. The thesis was that "small groups CAN pull off events with a large impact - the involvement of government to do so is not required."
 
Many CT's are based on the infallibility of gov.org/corporate/MIC conspiracy/conspirators, but here's a real world example of how such things play out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Rheault

"Robert Bradley Rheault /roʊ/ (October 31, 1925 – October 16, 2013) was an American colonel in the U.S. Army Special Forces who served as commander of the First Special Forces Group in Okinawa, and the Fifth Special Forces Group in Vietnam from May to July 1969. Rheault was best known for his role as a co-conspirator and commander of the unit responsible for the 20 June 1969 execution of South Vietnam double agent, Thai Khac Chuyen, who compromised intelligence agents involved in Project GAMMA operating in Vietnam and Cambodia.[1]"

IRL, the commanding officer of the 5th Special Forces Group couldn't get away clean on a killing a single individual in the middle of a war.
 
Many CT's are based on the infallibility of gov.org/corporate/MIC conspiracy/conspirators, but here's a real world example of how such things play out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Rheault

"Robert Bradley Rheault /roʊ/ (October 31, 1925 – October 16, 2013) was an American colonel in the U.S. Army Special Forces who served as commander of the First Special Forces Group in Okinawa, and the Fifth Special Forces Group in Vietnam from May to July 1969. Rheault was best known for his role as a co-conspirator and commander of the unit responsible for the 20 June 1969 execution of South Vietnam double agent, Thai Khac Chuyen, who compromised intelligence agents involved in Project GAMMA operating in Vietnam and Cambodia.[1]"

IRL, the commanding officer of the 5th Special Forces Group couldn't get away clean on a killing a single individual in the middle of a war.

Why not bring up the Chicago plot, BStrong?
 
Many CT's are based on the infallibility of gov.org/corporate/MIC conspiracy/conspirators, but here's a real world example of how such things play out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Rheault

"Robert Bradley Rheault /roʊ/ (October 31, 1925 – October 16, 2013) was an American colonel in the U.S. Army Special Forces who served as commander of the First Special Forces Group in Okinawa, and the Fifth Special Forces Group in Vietnam from May to July 1969. Rheault was best known for his role as a co-conspirator and commander of the unit responsible for the 20 June 1969 execution of South Vietnam double agent, Thai Khac Chuyen, who compromised intelligence agents involved in Project GAMMA operating in Vietnam and Cambodia.[1]"

IRL, the commanding officer of the 5th Special Forces Group couldn't get away clean on a killing a single individual in the middle of a war.

Another example is Pat Tillman (albeit smaller). Watergate is an excellent example.
 
You'd think that MK Ultra would be an example in the conspiricist favor, however the fact that MK Ultra actually backfired and helped set up the counter-culture and therefore the anti-war effort, via Ken Kesey and Robert Hunter, strikes against that.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom