How can people believe in this . . .

[Dr H]

. . . bovine dung?

I can sort of imagine how the uneducated, and under-educated in science might fall prey to the notion that homeopathy has something to offer them by way of medical treatment. The field does have all the outward trappings of modern technology: bottles and vials of medicinal-looking potions with mysterious quasi-Latin names; practitioners in white lab coats with official-looking documents hanging on their office walls; clean pharmaceutical preparation centers stocked with modern-looking lab equipment.

You put on a good show, and people will pay to get in.

But does no one who uses these preparations ever look beyond the label on the bottle? I was dismayed to discover that the National Institute of Health has been using tax-dollars -- to the tune of some $2.5 billion, thus far -- to "research" such discredited "alternative" medical practices as Reike, acupuncture, and biomagnetism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31190909/

But I was encouraged to find that even the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) had given up -- after 5 years and $3.8 million spent -- on studying homeopathy because "the evidence is not there at this point".

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cach...bandons+homeopathy"&cd=3 &hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

In that frame of mind, and with Homeopathy Awareness Week in full bloom, I set out to improve my mind by perusing some of the more comprehensive online homeopathic pharmacopeia for edification on what the latest in remedies might be from the "provings" field.

I first waded through the usual list of Preparations made from High Dilutes of Disgusting Bodily Fluids:

*Bacterium pyocyanus -- "blue pus bacillus"
*Divya -- Tiger's urine.
*Panthera pardus -- Leopard's urine
*Urini Leopardus pardalis -- Ocelot's urine

Seems like they might want to clean up their terminology a bit here. After all, you wouldn't want to ingest the pee of the wrong feline, accidentally. (Maybe not even on purpose...)

I am not making any of these up; you can find them all -- for sale -- here:
http://www.helios.co.uk/cgi-bin/store.cgi?action=list_remedies

Urine seems to be a very popular homeopathic ingredient, and Helios carries a wide assortment of pee, for all your health needs, including:

*Urina pan troglodytes -- chimpanzee urine
*Urinum Equinum -- horse urine

Last, but not least I found:

*Semen humanum

...which was not specifically described, but I think I can figure it out.

Now you would think -- or at least I would think -- that this list of ingredients from a Medeival witch-doctor's cupboard would be sufficient to put most people off homeopathy, but apparently not; it may even be what attracts some of them in the first place.

Then I found what I might call "Homeopathy Lite":

*Fluorescent (Merc Vapour) Light

It was not immediately clear whether this denoted a homeopathic remedy prepared by exposure to a fluorescent light, or whether an actual ground fluorescent light tube was used to prepare a "mother tincture" which was then diluted out of existence, as is de rigueur for homeopathic preps. But after I found the following, I decided it was probably the former:

*Luna - prepared by exposing lactose to moonlight
*Sol Britannic - prepared by exposing lactose to British sunlight
(which I admit is probably rare)
*Sol Australis - the lactose is exposed to Australian sunlight
(more common than the British variety, and apparently also "different")
*Spectrum - prepared by exposing lactose(?) to the light of a rainbow

I am not making any of these up, either; Helios stocks them all.


Next I gleaned a couple of interesting entries in what I call the "What the Hell?" group:

*Mucor mucedo -- "the mushroom"

What I found interesting about this one is the complete lack of specificity in the description.
Nothing is said about what kind on mushroom is to be used as the starting material, despite their being some 10,000 known varieties of mushroom (ranging from gourmet edibility to deadly), and an estimated similar number yet to be classified.

This vagueness is fascinating when considered in comparison with the very specific detail that is given concerning preparation of the dog poop remedy. (Yes, I did say "dog poop."):

*Excrementum canium -- "The faeces of a dog that has been fed with cow entrails (mother; german Shepard, father a mixture between a Hungarian shepard dog and a Setter.)"

You can find these fine medications, and their descriptions, here:

http://www.remedia-homeopathy.com/homeopathy/Mucor-mucedo-Nos/a959.html
http://www.remedia-homeopathy.com/homeopathy/Excrementum-canium/a2500.html

I guess anyone that isn't put off by being given dog poop pills by their "doctor" -- even really diluted dog poop pills -- is probably willing to, um, swallow pretty much anything.

Which brings me to my favorite group of homeopathic nostrums, the "Physics 'R' Us" group,
which includes:

*Plutonium nitricum -- homeopathinc plutonium
*Californium(249) Nitricum -- homeopathic Californium

Now I don't know how things are in other countries, but in the USA you don't just walk down to your local chemical supply house, Radio Shack, or True Value Hardware store and buy transuranic isotopes, so this raises the question in my mind as to where the homeopaths are getting the Plutonium and Californium to make the "mother tinctures" for these preparations. Are they fooling themselves even more than homeopathic "physicians" are fooling their patients?

Or have I stumbled on a case of someone pulling a fast one? E.g., someone is selling fake isotopes to homeopathic pharmacists from which they then make their remedies -- a case of quacks pulling one over on another group of quacks?

http://www.remedia-homeopathy.com/homeopathy/Plutonium-nitricum/a2954.html

Well, no matter, because I haven't even gotten to the best stuff yet. One of the latest in modern homeopathic remedies is:

*Positronium

Yes folks, that's right: homeopathic antimatter. You can read all about the interesting philosophy behind this one, here:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2...epage&utm_medium=link&utm_content=channellink

This might well seem the ultimate pinacle of the homeopathinc art, but ever-industrious homeopathic researchers have gone even further into arcane physics with:

*Magnetis polus arcticus -- "north pole of the magnet"

Homeopathic pharmacists, using only shaken bottles of water, alcohol, and milk-sugar have suceded accomplishing what the world's greatest physicists, with multimillion dollar accelerators have failed at: they have isolated magnetic monopoles -and- potentized them!

http://www.remedia.at/homeopathy/Magnetis+polus+arcticus.html?arzneinr=3066

But even that vast accomplishment pales in the glow of what must truly represent the epotome of homeopathic -- and prehaps con artist -- achievement. I had to save the best for last:

*Vaccuum

You read that right: vacuum is now available as a homeopathinc remedy. You mix NOTHING with solvent, shake it up, and sell it.

And, it's available in 3 (that's three) potencies!

I had to look a little further in to this one, and it appears to be legit (as legit as anything in homeopathy is legit, anyway). The person who has done the "proving" on this one has a website, and for a mere $43.00 you can purchase his/her book explaining how this amazing cure for ... um, for nothing, I guess... was discovered:

http://www.minimum.com/b.asp?a=eising-proving-vacuum


I ask you: does it get any better than this?

 

[ChrisC]

amazing cure for ... um, for nothing, I guess... was discovered

Hmmm... I'm not suffering from anything at all, so the appropriate remedy is vacuum (like cures like)? Does this cause the worst suffering possible?

 

[Z]

A few years ago, I wrote a letter to one of these big companies - I think it was Boiron, but it might have been Helios. I expressed my concerns about homeopathic principles, and the ethics of selling sugar pills as medicine.

I wish I still had that email.

Anyway, the gist of the reply was, "We sell it because people buy it. We make sure there's nothing in it that's going to harm anyone except, possibly, diabetics. It's not our place to argue efficacy - that's for homeopaths and their believers to debate. The water we use is run through industrial water purification techniques, and is basically the same as bottled drinking water. All our preparations start with a stock 'remedy' (I recall they put the term in scare quotes) provided by homeopathic 'doctors' (again, quite clearly recall the quotes used). By the time we're done processing the water, any possible harmful substances are long gone."

Their wording was much cleaner and long-winded, but that was the general gist of it - and to say, as long as it was still considered legal and people were buying, they'd keep selling it.

 

[Dr. Trintignant]

Now I don't know how things are in other countries, but in the USA you don't just walk down to your local chemical supply house, Radio Shack, or True Value Hardware store and buy transuranic isotopes

Actually, you can do precisely that. Any garden-variety smoke detector contains a small amount of Americium, a transuranic element with no stable isotopes.

You can also buy small quantities of various other isotopes here, no license required.

- Dr. Trintignant

 

[arthwollipot]

But does no one who uses these preparations ever look beyond the label on the bottle?

No, they really don't. They see homeopathic remedies on the shelf in the pharmacist's along with other OTC drugs, vitamins and so forth. They note that they don't need a prescription, and they feel that homeopathy is "natural" and therefore better than prescription drugs. I would hazard a guess that none of them know how a homeopathic remedy is prepared, or what it means, or what Avogadro's number is. They just don't know, and most of them don't care to find out. They get a mild placebo effect from them and that makes them think that it's working, so they'll go back to it later and buy more. Because it's natural and therefore better.

 

[Dr H]

Actually, you can do precisely that. Any garden-variety smoke detector contains a small amount of Americium, a transuranic element with no stable isotopes.

You're right; I didn't think of that one.

You can also buy small quantities of various other isotopes here, no license required.

- Dr. Trintignant

Well, United Nuclear isn't exactly Home Depot, but thanks for this interesting link.

I didn't see any plutonium or californium available from them, though. Much less
antimatter.

 

[Dr H]

No, they really don't. They see homeopathic remedies on the shelf in the pharmacist's along with other OTC drugs, vitamins and so forth. They note that they don't need a prescription, and they feel that homeopathy is "natural" and therefore better than prescription drugs. I would hazard a guess that none of them know how a homeopathic remedy is prepared, or what it means, or what Avogadro's number is. They just don't know, and most of them don't care to find out. They get a mild placebo effect from them and that makes them think that it's working, so they'll go back to it later and buy more. Because it's natural and therefore better.

I agree with pretty much all you say. But my main point here was, are people not even put off by the information that the remedy they purchased is purported to be made from plutonium? Or dog poop?

I mean, I can sort of understand how someone might be sucked into buying a remedy labeled "Thiamine hydrochloride, 30C" and thinking it's an actual medicine.

But "Excermentum canium, 30C" for crying out loud??

 

[Molinaro]

My favorite part of the Wiki entry for homeopathy is the following gem describing what a 30C dilution represents:

.. on average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.

 

[biomorph]

No, they really don't. They see homeopathic remedies on the shelf in the pharmacist's along with other OTC drugs, vitamins and so forth. They note that they don't need a prescription, and they feel that homeopathy is "natural" and therefore better than prescription drugs. I would hazard a guess that none of them know how a homeopathic remedy is prepared, or what it means, or what Avogadro's number is. They just don't know, and most of them don't care to find out. They get a mild placebo effect from them and that makes them think that it's working, so they'll go back to it later and buy more. Because it's natural and therefore better.

I agree, and the word "natural" needs striking from the dictionary, in some cases....a little overused, i'd suggest

 

[biomorph]

I agree with pretty much all you say. But my main point here was, are people not even put off by the information that the remedy they purchased is purported to be made from plutonium? Or dog poop?

look if it's organic and natural who cares! I'll take a pallet load, where do I order.....

I mean, I can sort of understand how someone might be sucked into buying a remedy labeled "Thiamine hydrochloride, 30C" and thinking it's an actual medicine.

But "Excermentum canium, 30C" for crying out loud??

thre's more than one born every minute, allegedly........lol

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Buyer beware.

We have this stupid Cold FX junk here. I told a customer once that it was just ginseng... actually just carbs from a ginseng plant... kind of complex sugar pill. Well, they showed me...
by pointing the ginseng latin name for ginseng on the bottle! "See- there's medicine"!

*roll eyes* People just want a treatment for the cold since it makes them feel yucky, they don't want to believe it's just ginseng, when it is!

Bah, it's sold as a supplement, not a drug, but somehow our stupid Canadian laws allow for claims, that it is proven to treat the common cold (via biased studies by the company that makes it). Ack!! They still don't have to treat it like a drug and prove it works somehow though.

We have double standards somehow for homegrown stuff it seems. The courts here allowed pig vitamin pill sellers to claim it can also treat mental illness in humans!

That stuff is from the same province that invented Cold FX.

See, we do these lame studies with tiny control groups (11 people that may or may not have colds or mental illnesses), then sell it as miracle cure. Then when it goes to court they rely on customer testimonialsto defend the claims. These testimonials sway the judge and convince him that they will just DIE if they can't still use the pig vitamin pills to treat their bipolor disorder. The claims become legal. They get sold as supplements that cure mental illness. No real studies needed! So,then people go off their real meds and take vitamins instead, and no data is tracked to see what happens to them. NO harm proven, so no harm done.

Same with homeopathy. No data is taken or tracked to see if people benefit from magic water, they just have to SAY it seemed to help them. Opinion trumps all still. People are supposedly happy, as reported by the sellers (not actually by the people supposedly claiming to be happy). People could be dying left, right and center of treatable diseases, but we will never know it, since the people selling it don't have to see if their stuff helps or harms anyone. They just have to say that someone said they love the stuff, and it's all good and they continue selling the cheapest stuff ever as the marked up junk it is. Then drug companies are villified for having expensive drugs. Well duh, they are expensive because they have to pay for real studies by real scientists to prove their DRUGS work and will do more good than harm! They also have to prove it has an effect!

This double standard makes me so sick.

 

[wackyvorlon]

I've had to argue with people to convince them that homeopathic isn't the same as using herbs. Many people I've talked to won't believe me when I tell them what homeopathy really is.

 

[shadron]

I agree with pretty much all you say. But my main point here was, are people not even put off by the information that the remedy they purchased is purported to be made from plutonium? Or dog poop?

Radioactivity was linked with good health for years before WWII; after that it declined, for obvious reasons. Colorado has a lot of radioactivity in the relatively young granite mountains. Here's an excerpt of a feature story about it in the Rocky Mountain News (RIP):

Also at the century's start, America's love affair with all things radioactive was in bloom. And Colorado was a major source of radium. In the spirit of the times, many Colorado hot springs either used radium in their names or claimed special restorative powers based on high levels of radioactivity.

In fact, there's not much radiation at any of the springs.

But until science firmly linked cancer and radiation in the 1970s, the pools in Idaho Springs were known as Radium Hot Springs.

And in the early 1900s, when Dr. Charles Davis of Chicago bought several sets of springs at Waunita near Gunnison, he crusaded against alcohol while advocating radium water.

Spiritualism, another turn-of-the-century trend, brought prescient New Age frolickers to Eldorado Springs near Boulder. There, a natural artesian spring had been a worship site for Indians for hundreds of years.

(http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/millennium/0928mile1.shtml )

Doing a google on "radium hot springs" finds that the new center of clean radioactivity has moved north to near Banff.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

You read that right: vacuum is now available as a homeopathinc remedy. You mix NOTHING with solvent, shake it up, and sell it.

That is a good one!

I like proving big rocks:

http://www.maryenglish.co.uk/stantondrew1.html

and little atoms:

http://www.minimum.com/reviews/proving-hydrogen3.htm

Salt is good, but what the hell is going on in the oceans?

http://www.natural-healing-guide.com/homeopathy.htm

~~ Paul

 

[arthwollipot]

I agree with pretty much all you say. But my main point here was, are people not even put off by the information that the remedy they purchased is purported to be made from plutonium? Or dog poop?

I mean, I can sort of understand how someone might be sucked into buying a remedy labeled "Thiamine hydrochloride, 30C" and thinking it's an actual medicine.

But "Excermentum canium, 30C" for crying out loud??

What makes you think they even read the ingredients, or understand them if they do? Your average homeopathy-buyer could very well read the words "excermentum canium" and completely fail to connect it with dog ****. Because your average homeopathy-buyer doesn't understand Latin (even fake Latin) and couldn't care less.

 

[Rolfe]

The more outlandish remedies aren't on the pharmacy shelves. If you look there, all you'll find is the usual arnica and belladona and pulsatilla and so on. All very natural and herbal-sounding, and nothing to frighten the horses.

Dog poop, antimatter and the Berlin Wall are apparently only used by specialists. I suspect the actual amount sold of any of the more unlikely ones is minuscule. In fact, I very much doubt if the suppliers keep these in stock. At best, I suspect that they have either the mother tincture or a relatively "low" potency in stock, and then simply run off higher potencies when and if they are ordered.

If you look at the Devon homoeopathy site, you'll notice a request for people who have used the remedy to treat patients to record what sort of results they got. Last time I looked there were few if any entries for most of the remedies listed.

Rolfe.

 

[Dr H]

I've had to argue with people to convince them that homeopathic isn't the same as using herbs. Many people I've talked to won't believe me when I tell them what homeopathy really is.

I've run into that, too. Since "homeopathic" and "naturopathic" remedies are frequently sold in the same place, a lot of people seem to assume that they are different versions of the same thing -- essentially herbal medicine.

Then they start to trot out things like "Y'know, the Indians used to chew willow bark for headaches, hundreds of years before scientists discovered that there was salicylic acid (aspirin) in the bark. So there must be someting to herbal medicine!)

Well yeah, I say, herbal medicine, but homeopathic is a whole different thing. When I explain it, maybe one in ten actually seems to get it.

And maybe I just haven't gotten around enough, but I've yet to hear of any naturopathic herbalist giving his patients dog-turd pills.

 

[Dr H]

At best, I suspect that they have either the mother tincture or a relatively "low" potency in stock, and then simply run off higher potencies when and if they are ordered.

The mind boggles to think of how someone may be keeping a mother tincture of antimatter in stock.

How does one succuss a magnetic bottle?

 

[One Skunk Todd]

Which brings me to my favorite group of homeopathic nostrums, the "Physics 'R' Us" group,
which includes:

*Plutonium nitricum -- homeopathinc plutonium
*Californium(249) Nitricum -- homeopathic Californium

Now I don't know how things are in other countries, but in the USA you don't just walk down to your local chemical supply house, Radio Shack, or True Value Hardware store and buy transuranic isotopes, so this raises the question in my mind as to where the homeopaths are getting the Plutonium and Californium to make the "mother tinctures" for these preparations. Are they fooling themselves even more than homeopathic "physicians" are fooling their patients?

Why do I think of Back to the Future?

I'm sure that in 1985 plutonium is available in every corner drug store, but in 1955 it's a little hard to come by.

 

[not daSkeptic]

Their wording was much cleaner and long-winded, but that was the general gist of it - and to say, as long as it was still considered legal and people were buying, they'd keep selling it.

There is, it pains me to say, a large and legitimate part of the business world that knowingly, intentionally, and legally offers poor-quality products and services. The idea is that the costs involved are so low that with only a modest sales volume, and even including a large number of returns and refunds, they still make bank. I once found myself doing a job for such a business (not a homeopath, but a high-volume/low-grade shop nonetheless), and the key information they were interested in was as follows:

1. Number of customers
2. Gross sales
3. Net revenue (gross sales minus refunds)

They didn't care much about the data that led to these figures so long as they were reasonably accurate and, most importantly, #3 kept growing. Myself working for the opposite type of company (low-volume/high-quality), I found it to be a rather difficult job. The client regularly demanded the production use of things known to be incomplete and sometimes even downright broken. Their justification was, "Nobody will notice." The really sad thing is they were right.

This way of doing business would not exist were there no market for the products. I cannot place the full blame with these companies so long as the public continues to buy their crap. I guess we just have a society where for many good-enough is better than good.

Anyway ... [/off-topic-rant]