Horrible US vs. Wonderful Europe

[Skeptic]

# of People Bush freed from tyranny in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last three years: 40,000,000.

# of People European nations freed from tyranny in last 50 years: 0.

% growth of US economy last year: 4.3%

% growth of EU economy last year: 0.3%

"Factoids"? Sure. But no worse--and in fact much better--factorids than the ones used to "prove" how horrible Bush is and how much morally superior Europe is.

 

[Cleon]

So what?

 

[Shaun from Scotland]

# of People Bush freed from tyranny in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last three years: 40,000,000.

# of People European nations freed from tyranny in last 50 years: 0.

At this point I would like to ask anyone reading this if they could find out what has happened to approximately 11,000 British soldiers that we apparantely sent to Iraq. I hope you can help as I dont think we can make a milk carton big enough.

If you find any trace of them please send a note telling us where you found them to

Tony Blair
No 10 Downing street
London
UK

We'd also be interested to know what happened to the troops we sent to Kuwait, The Falklands, Afghanistan, Belize etc etc. Oh and let's not forget Northern Ireland

Thanks for your help

 

[varwoche]

# of People Bush freed from tyranny in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last three years: 40,000,000.

1) Iraq: Let's hope. This is clearly a transitional phase -- too early to declare that freedom has been achieved and tyranny defeated.

2) Afghanistan: In Kabul yes; rest of country debatable.

 

[charley_bigtime]

# of People Bush freed from tyranny in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last three years: 40,000,000.

# of People European nations freed from tyranny in last 50 years: 0.

Is anybody taking this seriously?

 

[Chaos]

Re: Re: Horrible US vs. Wonderful Europe

Is anybody taking this seriously?

One person: "Skeptic".

 

[Mike B.]

Re: Re: Horrible US vs. Wonderful Europe

Is anybody taking this seriously?

Now wait a second here...

If I recall there was a genocide going on in Europe in the Balkans that consumed hundreds of thousands of people.

It only stopped when the US finally got involved.

I sometimes think this idea given off in the "Guardian" and "Le Monde" that the EU is more sophisticated and nuanced than those "cowboy" Americans has to do with the fact that many countries in the EU are completely militarily impotent. Having their defense subsidized heavily by the US for the past 50 years, is a hard habit to break.

As Michael Howard of the Conservitive Party in the UK recently said something to the effect after what happened in Spain, "The sad fact is that the terrorists realize if you attack the US you get retaliation, if you attack Europe you can win."
Sooooo...It is much easier to say that the US is a "bully" etc. than to actually have to get your hands dirty and build a credible military.

That is why I am interested in all the polls, in the EU that state they want to be a power to counter-balance the US. Well fine...However, I don't think they realize that with that power they would most likely have to sometimes act. They won't be able to play the game of saying, "Tsk..Tsk..." while doing nothing.

 

[plindboe]

"Factoids"? Sure. But no worse--and in fact much better--factorids than the ones used to "prove" how horrible Bush is and how much morally superior Europe is.

And what you are doing is no better than what they are doing. Two wrongs doesn't make a right.

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Re: Horrible US vs. Wonderful Europe

"The sad fact is that the terrorists realize if you attack the US you get retaliation, if you attack Europe you can win."

Do you really need to attack the French to win?

 

[charley_bigtime]

Re: Re: Re: Horrible US vs. Wonderful Europe

Now wait a second here...

If I recall there was a genocide going on in Europe in the Balkans that consumed hundreds of thousands of people.

It only stopped when the US finally got involved.

I sometimes think this idea given off in the "Guardian" and "Le Monde" that the EU is more sophisticated and nuanced than those "cowboy" Americans has to do with the fact that many countries in the EU are completely militarily impotent. Having their defense subsidized heavily by the US for the past 50 years, is a hard habit to break.

As Michael Howard of the Conservitive Party in the UK recently said something to the effect after what happened in Spain, "The sad fact is that the terrorists realize if you attack the US you get retaliation, if you attack Europe you can win."
Sooooo...It is much easier to say that the US is a "bully" etc. than to actually have to get your hands dirty and build a credible military.

That is why I am interested in all the polls, in the EU that state they want to be a power to counter-balance the US. Well fine...However, I don't think they realize that with that power they would most likely have to sometimes act. They won't be able to play the game of saying, "Tsk..Tsk..." while doing nothing.

So NATO (i.e. Europeans included) had nothing to do with it whatsoever then then?

Methinks your vision is blinkered.

Now then, would you mind addressing the points at hand again...

# of People Bush freed from tyranny in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last three years: 40,000,000.

# of People European nations freed from tyranny in last 50 years: 0.

...and - considering that European troops also assisted the US in Afghanistan - once more tell me if we should take them seriously instead of jingoistically maintaining that you did everything yourselves.

Thankyou.

 

[epepke]

Re: Re: Horrible US vs. Wonderful Europe

reading this if they could find out what has happened to approximately 11,000 British soldiers that we apparantely sent to Iraq. I hope you can help as I dont think we can make a milk carton big enough.

This is not necessarily an apology for Skeptic, but I'm never sure when the UK is part of Europe and when it isn't part of Europe.

Geographically, it would seem to be part of Europe. However, I've seen a number of UK editorials that blast Europe as if it were something distinct from the UK.

I've also seen references to "the Continent," as if the UK were not part of the continent of Europe.

 

[charley_bigtime]

We're part of Europe and part of the EU too but have not embraced the Euro and dropped out of the EMS.

We're not part of continental Europe geographically but we are part of the continent of Europe.

Next week, how to nail custard to the ceiling.

 

[epepke]

We're part of Europe and part of the EU too but have not embraced the Euro and dropped out of the EMS.

We're not part of continental Europe geographically but we are part of the continent of Europe.

Depends on whether you count the Chunnel.

Next week, how to nail custard to the ceiling.

Indeed.

 

[circuit slave]

# of People European nations freed from tyranny in last 50 years: 0.

 

[Jundar]

Re^3: Horrible US vs. Wonderful Europe

That is why I am interested in all the polls, in the EU that state they want to be a power to counter-balance the US. Well fine...However, I don't think they realize that with that power they would most likely have to sometimes act. They won't be able to play the game of saying, "Tsk..Tsk..." while doing nothing.

The problem - among other thins - is that there is no "Europe" as a political entity.

The European Union consists of many different states, is ruled by different government (lefties, rightwing, convervatives, idiots etc.) It is possible to act as an independent state and send troops (as the UK do more often, i.e. to Commonwealth states, and Germany does less often, i.e. Afghanistan and the Balkan).
The problem is the size of the thing. Europa is much more politically divided without a central government - there´s simply not an easy way to get 16 countries to act as one. It has - let´s face it - a more painful tradition with wars than the USA (no, I don´t want to add the numbers). So perhaps Europa has a longer tradition dealing with the side- and long-term effect of modern warfare which for the USA have mainly taken place well outside their own country. (Hence the shock after 9/11 ?)

I could also babble about the issue of a free media and the abuse of public opinion (which is a bit harder when people actually get to read papers in other languages and from other countries, which is no big deal in Europe) and the "informed stupidity" deriving from that (e.g. Skeptic´s factoids which are nonsense anyway - how do you judge tyranny and freedom?)

 

[Reginald]

The whole thread title is based on a falsity in any case.

Who's it aimed at?

Lobbing this type of thing on the table without any specific target is rather like the child shouting "I did nothing wrong" before being accused of anything. Is it an insecurity thing?

The misguided belief that the US is the "Be all and end all" of world freedom and the world economy is as stupid (yes stupid!) as saying that the US is "Horrible".

You would think that on a board of this caliber that these old black/white, yes/no type threads would be less common.

It's a seagull thread in any case, "swoops in, sh!ts, then clears off".

 

[Outcast]

How many nations did Europe rebuild in the last 50 years? 0

Number of wars started by Germany? 3

Number of wars started by Germany after we beat them to a pile of ruble? 0

Number of countries over run by the Soviet Union in the last 50 years? 0

Number of Soviet occupied nations liberated by Europe 0

Number of Soviet occupied nations liberated by America? 9

How many McDonalds in Europe? 5,124.

 

[Reginald]

How many nations did Europe rebuild in the last 50 years? 0

Number of wars started by Germany? 3

Number of wars started by Germany after we beat them to a pile of ruble? 0

Number of countries over run by the Soviet Union in the last 50 years? 0

Number of Soviet occupied nations liberated by Europe 0

Number of Soviet occupied nations liberated by America? 9

How many McDonalds in Europe? 5,124.

Please tell me this is a "jest" post?

 

[Outcast]

Re: Re^3: Horrible US vs. Wonderful Europe

It has - let´s face it - a more painful tradition with wars than the USA (no, I don´t want to add the numbers). So perhaps Europa has a longer tradition dealing with the side- and long-term effect of modern warfare which for the USA have mainly taken place well outside their own country. (Hence the shock after 9/11 ?)

Europe has a long tradition of fighting wars, America has a long tradition of winning wars.

The reason Europe will never be a major power is, they can't afford it. In order to build up their military, they would have to cut social programs.

Cost of a Ohio Class submarine $1.9 billion.
B-2A Spirit bomber — $2.6 billion each
Minuteman III missile — $33.5 million each

The only difference between a man and a boy is the cost of his toys.

And guess who has the expensive toys?

 

[Outcast]

Please tell me this is a "jest" post?

Yeah its all in jest. I just love a good laugh with it is true.