Homoeopathic anaesthetics?

[steenkh]

My wife recently received a cortisone injection in her shoulder. She has tried this a number of times, but it has always been very painful, and she is allergic to most painkillers. This doctor told her that he would give it to her anyway, but she would not feel a thing because he would use a homoeopathic anaesthetic! He only used one shot, so if he used anything, it would have been included in that shot.

His promise was true: there was not the least pain involved in this cortisone injection? What did he use? I really doubt that it was pure placebo effect, because this was not the first time my wife was promised a pain-free injection, and she was fearing it very much. It is also possible that this doctor was able to make the injection in a special way that was painless, but why would he then claim that he was using homoeopathy?

If homoeopathy can claim such strong pain killers, why have we not seen more bids for the MDC using this effect?

 

[shuttlt]

Homeopaths have been making strong claims since the early part of the 19th Century and being challenged on them for nearly as long. If homeopathic claims could be backed up the surprising part wouldn't be that there weren't more challenges to the MDC but that homeopaths hadn't ruled themselves out of the challenge by succeeding at another challenge a century before Randi was born.

My guess would be that the answer lies here:

so if he used anything, it would have been included in that shot

 

[steenkh]

My guess would be that the answer lies here:

So if he used anything it would have been included in that shot

Just a few minutes before I read this, I realised the same possibility. I did not mention it, but the cortisone injection did not have any effect at all. But the previous injections have also had no effect - apart from the pain.

The doctor who administered this latest shot is a well respected specialist in shoulder and back problems, and there has been nothing woo-woo about anything he has said and done. However, this is Austria, and homoeopathy is considered mainstream here in contrast to our homeland Denmark.

We are going to see the doctor again tomorrow, and I will see if I can find out just what he put into that shot. Perhaps it was all homoeopathic, and not a cortisone shot as I and my wife thought.

 

[Daylightstar]

My wife recently received a cortisone injection in her shoulder. She has tried this a number of times, but it has always been very painful, and she is allergic to most painkillers. This doctor told her that he would give it to her anyway, but she would not feel a thing because he would use a homoeopathic anaesthetic! He only used one shot, so if he used anything, it would have been included in that shot.

His promise was true: there was not the least pain involved in this cortisone injection? What did he use? I really doubt that it was pure placebo effect, because this was not the first time my wife was promised a pain-free injection, and she was fearing it very much. It is also possible that this doctor was able to make the injection in a special way that was painless, but why would he then claim that he was using homoeopathy?

If homoeopathy can claim such strong pain killers, why have we not seen more bids for the MDC using this effect?

Were you present during the injection?

If your wife in contrast with previous times, this time received a completely painless injection, would it perhaps be a good idea to ask the doctor exactly what was used or/and how?
Especially since this doctor apparently was able to predict a completely painless injection.

 

[steenkh]

Were you present during the injection?

Yes. I have to add that although my German is quite good, I did have problems understanding him 100%. My wife is a native, though.

Especially since this doctor apparently was able to predict a completely painless injection.

He did add "... at least, that is what I aim for"

 

[Daylightstar]

...
He did add "... at least, that is what I aim for"

So this doctor has a bit of a sense of humor
Anyway, success in finding out tomorrow. All I could advise further for tomorrow at this point is, leave the doctor's office with data, not a hazy anecdote

 

[poblob14]

My wild guess is that he's just a lot better at giving shots than the people she's seen in the past. Practitioners vary widely in their ability to draw blood and give injections.

Also, given the other info about him, is there a chance he was joking about a "homeopathic anaesthetic"?

 

[ehcks]

It could have been a trick. Sometimes people show allergic reactions to things they're not allergic to, merely because they think they are. He could have used the placebo effect to give her a real anesthetic she thought she was allergic to but was not?

 

[IXP]

I did not mention it, but the cortisone injection did not have any effect at all. But the previous injections have also had no effect - apart from the pain.

Why is your wife taking injections that have no effect except to cause pain?

IXP

 

[steenkh]

Why is your wife taking injections that have no effect except to cause pain?

She was operated in the shoulder in December, but has had a lot of pain since then because of inflammations. The standard response from specialists seem to be cortisone injections that temporarily remove the pain (for a couple of weeks) so that the inflammation can disappear and the vicious circle be broken. However, as described, the injections have never had this effect on my wife that it has on other patients, and each new doctor refuses to believe that this is the case.

In a couple of hours we will see the Austrian expert we consulted to get a second opinion on whether a new operation will be necessary. So far he has impressed us by being able to determine the state of the shoulder (and come to the same conclusion as the Danish doctors) just by pressing with his fingers, where other doctors needed to use ultrasound equipment. Clearly, he is very experienced.

It will be very interesting to hear his reaction on the lack of effect of the injection, and I will try to find out just what he injected, although I am not sure if I will get the answer I want, because he is also a very authoritarian type (sure of himself), and I noticed that he only grudgingly allowed me to be present.

 

[steenkh]

OK, the doctor won! We asked what was in his injection, armed with the fact that it had no effect whatsoever. He told us it was not cortisone, but a mix of something anti-inflammatory mixed with something homeopathic. And he could not believe it had not helped my wife, so he measured how much she could move her arm, and there was a huge improvement! Her arms can now reach each other on her back, but a few days ago, they were eight centimetres apart!

The feeling is the same but the mobility has improved. We were promised that in the next days it will improve even further.

Last time he had also treated her back with a (chiropractic) manipulation, and that too had improved.

I did not see the doctor mix the injection, so if it was mixed, it was mixed right from the sealed bottle. Perhaps he was using the positive image that homeopathy has in Austria to add a little extra placebo to the anti-inflammatory injection?

 

[Apology]

OK, the doctor won! We asked what was in his injection, armed with the fact that it had no effect whatsoever. He told us it was not cortisone, but a mix of something anti-inflammatory mixed with something homeopathic. And he could not believe it had not helped my wife, so he measured how much she could move her arm, and there was a huge improvement! Her arms can now reach each other on her back, but a few days ago, they were eight centimetres apart!

The feeling is the same but the mobility has improved. We were promised that in the next days it will improve even further.

Last time he had also treated her back with a (chiropractic) manipulation, and that too had improved.

I did not see the doctor mix the injection, so if it was mixed, it was mixed right from the sealed bottle. Perhaps he was using the positive image that homeopathy has in Austria to add a little extra placebo to the anti-inflammatory injection?

First, let me say, I am not a doctor.

However, I do know from personal experience and research that cortisone injections can be very painful at the time of the injection due to a side effect called a cortisone flare. The fact that the doctor used a different anti-inflammatory may be why this particular injection was less painful than previous injections. Please note that a cortisone flare does not mean that the cortisone isn't working. Cortisone usually takes 48-72 hours in order to reduce swelling and inflammation, which is coincidentally (or not) how long the pain from the cortisone flare lasts.

Chiropractic manipulation is very unlikely to help. The premise of chiropractic care is that there are dislocations or imbalances in the spine, called subluxations, that cause a variety of ills throughout the body. Chiropractic "adjustments" supposedly move the dislocated or imbalanced vertebrae in the spine back into alignment, banishing the subluxations, and thereby banishing the patient's ills. However, in the 114 years since chiropractic theory was developed, subluxations have never been objectively shown to exist. There have been many, many studies done, and chiropractors still cannot agree where the subluxations are in any particular spine. Nor has any study objectively shown that chiropractic adjustments can cure any disease whatsoever. Take an x-ray of a perfectly healthy spine, take that x-ray to 3 different chiropractors, and you will get 3 different opinions as to where the subluxations are, and what is "wrong" with the subject of the x-ray. Trigger-point therapy is the same way, in that no 2 trigger-point therapists agree where the trigger-points are, although they'd be glad to stab a needle into the "trigger-point" and take your money if you really want to pay them to do so.

Please be very careful from this point on. This man hasn't done anything harmful to your wife or tried to sell you any outrageously expensive useless items so far, but there's still time. The real money in chiropractic and homeopathy is in "supplements" --- overpriced vitamins and homeopathic cures that make your spine feel better by reducing the strain on your lower back through reducing the weight of the wallet in your back pocket.

 

[steenkh]

First, let me say, I am not a doctor.

However, I do know from personal experience and research that cortisone injections can be very painful at the time of the injection due to a side effect called a cortisone flare. The fact that the doctor used a different anti-inflammatory may be why this particular injection was less painful than previous injections. Please note that a cortisone flare does not mean that the cortisone isn't working. Cortisone usually takes 48-72 hours in order to reduce swelling and inflammation, which is coincidentally (or not) how long the pain from the cortisone flare lasts.

Thanks for the explanation. The other injections that my wife has received were painful, but had no effects at when the first pain had gone away. She also needs stronger doses of other pain killers to feel any effect, and some, such as morphine, cause violent reactions. Many years ago, at her first first back operation, she was supposed to wake up after an hour, but was unconscious for six hours. When she woke up she complained about pains, and the nurse gave her a morphine injection which caused my wife to throw up and pass out for another couple of hours. The anaesthetics that dentists use, also have little effect apart from a strong pain, so my wife usually has her dental work done without anaesthetics.

Chiropractic manipulation is very unlikely to help. The premise of chiropractic care is that there are dislocations or imbalances in the spine, called subluxations, that cause a variety of ills throughout the body. Chiropractic "adjustments" supposedly move the dislocated or imbalanced vertebrae in the spine back into alignment, banishing the subluxations, and thereby banishing the patient's ills.

Well, this doctor never mentioned the word 'chiropractic', that was my interpretation of the manipulation that I recognised. The theory may be bollocks, but if it works, it works, and in this case there was a significant improvement of the mobility of the legs.

It has been my impression that the problems with the manipulations is not that they do not work, but that some are dangerous, and other therapies exist without the dangers.

I have myself had a "miraculous" healing some years ago, when doctors variously pronounced that I had a 'small blood clot' in the leg, or that the pain that had made me hopple around for more than a month was 'just one of those things that happen with age', and that I should get used to it. As I have described previously on these pages, I went to a chiro, and she immediately noted a significant swelling of my foot that I had not noticed myself, because it was painless. She asked me to stand on my toes, and on my "bad" leg, i was hardly able to do it. After making a flick with my foot, and popping my toes, she again asked me to stand on my toes, and this time I could do it almost equally well on both feet. I did not hobble after that, and the swelling disappeared after a few days.

A couple of months earlier, I had had a bicycle accident and my pains were probably caused by this, even though they had started some time after.

The chiro never spoke about subluxations, or adjusting anything, and do not see why the application of a manipulation would be woo in itself. I have spoken to ordinary physiotherapists who said that they also applied some of the same manipulations that chinos do, just like this Austrian doctor. My own theory is that the manipulations cause a light numbing of pains in the affected area, just like an anaesthetic, and that this sometimes can break the vicious circle that keeps inflammations going. The real problem is that neck manipulations can kill you, and who knows what side effects the other manipulations can have?

Please be very careful from this point on. This man hasn't done anything harmful to your wife or tried to sell you any outrageously expensive useless items so far, but there's still time. The real money in chiropractic and homeopathy is in "supplements" --- overpriced vitamins and homeopathic cures that make your spine feel better by reducing the strain on your lower back through reducing the weight of the wallet in your back pocket.

There is no danger here. We are back in Denmark However, visiting a specialist doctor in Austria as a private patient is expensive, so you can consider us fleeced nevertheless!

This night was the first time for a long time where my wife has not been woken up by pains, so there is hope! The injection was five days ago, so if it was the cause, it has taken some days to work (but the increased mobility was apparent already yesterday).