Homeopathy number crunching

[Weak Kitten]

To start off I must explain that my husband is an accountant and loves to play with numbers. So when we were at the store and I noticed a homeopathy display I just had to tell him what the silly dilution numbers actually meant. His eyes lit up as he started to do the numbers and he came up with some interesting data. Here's his word on the subject:

I, like many geeks would do, wondered how much water I would need to perform 30 dilutions for 1 drop.

Hmm, 1 drop = 1cc. 1 dilution becomes 100cc (soda can), 2 becomes 10,000 cc (10 liters aka quarter tank of gas), 3 becomes 1 cu m. 8 becomes 10 cu km. uh-oh. volume of earth... 10^12 cu km. ok, 1 drop becomes the earth at 13.5 dilutions... 100 billion stars in the galaxy... 18 dilutions... 10^22 stars in the universe... 24.5 dilutions at 1 earth-volume of water per star in the entire universe...

wow. what's these guys water bill?

ok, new analogy... world GDP = 74 Trillion = 10^16. 1 penny out of that is 9 C. ok, every star has an earth... 14c for the galaxy, 20C for the universe... 1 penny out of the universes GDP is 20C dilution...

They sell 200C dilutions of a flu medicine... 1 atom in the universe is only 40C. If Men In Black was right, and every atom in the universe contains it's own universe, then one atom in one of those universes would only be 80C.

OK, fun's over... That's just crazy-talk now.

So, how exactly are homeopaths making those 30C dilutions they claim to be selling? Please, let me know if anyone ever gets an answer to this one. I would love to know.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

So, how exactly are homeopaths making those 30C dilutions they claim to be selling? Please, let me know if anyone ever gets an answer to this one. I would love to know.

They fill the bottles up from the tap, wave them around in front of the active ingredient, then package.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

They don't dilute the entire original sample. At each step they throw most of the prior step away and then dilute only the remainder.

 

[Turgor]

They fill the bottles up from the tap, wave them around in front of the active ingredient, then package.

I hope that the companies that make money selling those bottles of water don't even bother waving them around in front of anything. That hurts their profit margin!

 

[Amapola]

Here's a link to my favorite film of making a homeopathic remedy. (For those easily offended, he is making a dilution of urine, and uses a word for urine that begins with the letter "p" and ends with the letter "s". Please don't click on the link if this is offensive to you.)

 

[geni]

So, how exactly are homeopaths making those 30C dilutions they claim to be selling? Please, let me know if anyone ever gets an answer to this one. I would love to know.

There are two methods.

One is to
Take 1ml of the mother tincture and add to 99ml of water.
Shake (1C)
Take 1ml of the resulting mixture and add to 99ml of water
Shake (2C)
Take 1ml of the resulting mixture and add to 99ml of water
Shake (3C)

...

Take 1ml of the resulting mixture and add to 99ml of water
Shake (30C)

This required just under 3 liters of water (you can redude the amount of water you need in future by holding onto the 29C stuff which is good for 10 liters of 30C)

The other method is to fill a bottle with mother tincture, empty it and then fill the bottle with water and empty a bottle 30 times (this is known as the Korsakovian method).

 

[geni]

For very high dilutions homeopaths sometimes use something called a continuous flow method.

There are also things called remedy machines where you put in a vial of water or a bottle of pills and type in a number of the remedy you want. Then nothing happens and the water or pills supposedly that remedy. Unfortunately without taking the back off one said machines it's hard to show how little takes place.

Vorticity describes one here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6726676&postcount=11

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Here's a link to my favorite film of making a homeopathic remedy. (For those easily offended, he is making a dilution of urine, and uses a word for urine that begins with the letter "p" and ends with the letter "s". Please don't click on the link if this is offensive to you.)

His describing this, right?

http://biomedx.com/urine/

~~ Paul

 

[sadhatter]

In answer to the op.

They don't.

Seeing as there is no way to verify what is in the pill, there is no reason to go through the complicated process, just have equipment available that would allow you to say " this is what i use." in case the issue comes up.

 

[Sherman Bay]

If you are a homeopathic preparation house, you can fill up every bottle of every desired end product with the same plain water. Since there is no known way of verifying what's in a homeopathic "medicine," there's no way of proving that you did that.

Profit with no risk of detection.

 

[geni]

In answer to the op.

They don't.

Seeing as there is no way to verify what is in the pill, there is no reason to go through the complicated process, just have equipment available that would allow you to say " this is what i use." in case the issue comes up.

We've never found any evidence that any of the big homeopathic pharmacies do that.

 

[geni]

If you are a homeopathic preparation house, you can fill up every bottle of every desired end product with the same plain water. Since there is no known way of verifying what's in a homeopathic "medicine," there's no way of proving that you did that.

Profit with no risk of detection.

No risk? Firstly you are betting on none of your employees talking. Secondly you are betting on absolute security of your preperation room. Thirdly if you don't have the kit and the mother tinctures (or at least low potancy starting material around) then people will again get suspicious.

The cost of holding the 30 or so remedies that people actualy use at 29C and making them up to 30C as required is so low it's not work cheating.

 

[sadhatter]

We've never found any evidence that any of the big homeopathic pharmacies do that.

The problem is, how could you?

If an inspection is done, and no one is using the equipment, well that would be no more weird, than a real pharmacy happening to be not compounding at that time.

When there is literally no difference between the product and non homeopathed water, it is simply good business sense to minimize time needed to prepare the products. And if a customer wants to see the magic? Do a small demonstration.

The problem with selling water and sugar pills is, you have no way of proving your not just selling water and sugar pills other than sitting down and letting each client watch you prepare each medication. And even with a $200 fee for a consultation , ( based off of a local homeopath that works out of a local pharmacy.) this is a pretty rare thing, and certainly not done in even a slim majority of the cases.

 

[geni]

The problem is, how could you?

If an inspection is done, and no one is using the equipment, well that would be no more weird, than a real pharmacy happening to be not compounding at that time.

Some of them are quite large companies. Boiron for example has revenue in the 100s of millions. Someone would have talked by now. You are suggesting an unreasonably large conspiracy.

 

[sadhatter]

No risk? Firstly you are betting on none of your employees talking. Secondly you are betting on absolute security of your preperation room. Thirdly if you don't have the kit and the mother tinctures (or at least low potancy starting material around) then people will again get suspicious.

The cost of holding the 30 or so remedies that people actualy use at 29C and making them up to 30C as required is so low it's not work cheating.

Non disclosure agreements, grandfathering in of the process ( in canada anyway.) , and a modicum of vigilance ( real pharmacists have to make sure their compounding areas are free of unwanted people too. And people do have a tendency to try and see what is going on. But they seem to do it just fine.) , all combine to give the no risk of detection. As long as you have the equipment that could do your magic ritual, and its not growin cobwebs , there is literally no way they could be found out.

And to counter " its not worth cheating" comment, doing no work at all, and never having to buy additional stock, not to mention not using any man hours, are all pretty good incentives to cheat. When you put in next to no money or effort, it is very easy to significantly raise your profit margin.

When there is no risk of being caught, people will cheat.

 

[sadhatter]

Some of them are quite large companies. Boiron for example has revenue in the 100s of millions. Someone would have talked by now. You are suggesting an unreasonably large conspiracy.

No i am suggesting a non disclosure agreement. Being sued for divulging trade secrets is a pretty big incentive to keep one's mouth shut.

I could be held legally accountable, still if i were to divulge certain aspects of my previous mundane job. It is no where out of the realm of possibility , let alone a massive conspiracy to think that the same thing is done to employees of homeopathic companies.

 

[Sherman Bay]

Some of them are quite large companies. Boiron for example has revenue in the 100s of millions. Someone would have talked by now. You are suggesting an unreasonably large conspiracy.

What would they talk about? You think that any one employee has total knowledge of the entire preparation stream from duck to finish?

"Welcome to Boiron. As our newest employee, here's how to do your job. See that bottle over there? That's the magic ingredient. Empty it into this mixer, then fill up the tank with water from the tap to make it more potent, fill all these little bottles, then label them. When you're done, it's time to quit for the day."

"What's in the magic bottle? A 29C solution, of course."

 

[geni]

Non disclosure agreements, grandfathering in of the process ( in canada anyway.) , and a modicum of vigilance ( real pharmacists have to make sure their compounding areas are free of unwanted people too.

Non disclosure agreements are not going to help you with fraud.

Keeping people out of your production areas is going to create problems when selling to larger chains who will want to see stuff being produced. If you've ever worked for a company in the manufacturing sector there will be a continious flow of people being given tours of the shop foor and the like.

Oh and then there are new recruits. You are going to get a lot of homeopathy true belivers who will not react well to finding out you are making from their POV fraudulent products.

The size of the conspirocy you would need is just not credible.

And people do have a tendency to try and see what is going on. But they seem to do it just fine.) , all combine to give the no risk of detection. As long as you have the equipment that could do your magic ritual, and its not growin cobwebs , there is literally no way they could be found out.

Once you've gone to the expense of putting together production line and keeping it clean not running it simply risks someone spotting your power bill is unreasonably low. Which means you get investigated by the electricty company keen to find out how you bypassed the meter.

And to counter " its not worth cheating" comment, doing no work at all,

If you've built a production line and decided to keep it clean you've kinda comitted yourself to actual work.

and never having to buy additional stock,

No requirment anyway. There are pharmacies out there that have been working from the same 10C stock for decades (best we can tell no one has had any mother tincture of carcinosinum for a long time).

not to mention not using any man hours, are all pretty good incentives to cheat. When you put in next to no money or effort, it is very easy to significantly raise your profit margin.

Zee cost of one duck per year isn't going to make much of an impact on Boiron's margins.

When there is no risk of being caught, people will cheat.

No they will sometimes cheat. If you think homeopathy actualy works then cheating in this case would by most standards be considered unethical.

 

[geni]

What would they talk about? You think that any one employee has total knowledge of the entire preparation stream from duck to finish?

People tend to find things out. Unless you are the CIA information segregation isn't going to happen because it's so expensive.

"Welcome to Boiron. As our newest employee, here's how to do your job. See that bottle over there? That's the magic ingredient. Empty it into this mixer, then fill up the tank with water from the tap to make it more potent, fill all these little bottles, then label them. When you're done, it's time to quit for the day."

"What's in the magic bottle? A 29C solution, of course."

But why bother? The cost of the 29C solution is practicaly zero and betting the future of a company that size on someone finding out isn't a sane business decision?

 

[Aepervius]

The other method is to fill a bottle with mother tincture, empty it and then fill the bottle with water and empty a bottle 30 times (this is known as the Korsakovian method).

From the description of the reactor from somebody I knew working at boiron, it was apparentely their method.