Homeopathy in Veterinary medicine

WWu777

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Something that John Benneth posted to his list:

--------------------------------
Critics of homeopathy say that it's nothing more than a placebo. How is
it then that there is this growing field of veterinary homeopathy?
Despite all their whining, the critics of homeopathy just can't seem to
stop the use of it in some rather odd situations for a placebo . . .

INSIDE the immune system
Casa Grande Valley Newspapers - Casa Grande, AZ, USA
... Dr. Stolz has been studying veterinary homeopathy acupuncture and
nutrition
since 1988,. She treats animals and people holistically ...
<http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11023407&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept
_id=222089&rfi=6>

FAMILY, pet home health care series
Apple Valley Sun Current - Apple Valley, MN, United States
... March 2 Tamplin will discuss homeopathy, its history and practice,
along with suggestions for homeopathic remedies that can be used for
simple
first aid ...
<http://www.mnsun.com/story.asp?city=Apple_Valley&story=130230>
 
I am afraid you have misunderstood the homeopathic principle here. According to homeopathic doctrine, infections are not the primary cause of disease. Infections are disturbing factors (miasms) that may distort the functioning of the vital force.

Correspondingly, the immune system is not a curative mechanism. The immune system may be the mechanism by which the body actively fights infections (and thus miasms), but the only way to induce true cure is to make the corrupted vital force work correctly again, and the way to do this is via the law of similars.

It would be desirable if people presenting material in favour of a system, e.g. homeopathy, took the trouble to study and understand the system they are pretending to defend. It is work enough to be an active skeptic without having to educate believers about their own belief systems.

Hans :rolleyes:
 
:)
WWu777 said:
Also, don't ask me any questions about homeopathy. I know nothing about it.

Winston
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This was posted in Winston's thread in the "Million Dollar Challenge" forum area.

I'm a veterinary surgeon. I have an extensive knowledge of what veterinary homoeopaths do, and how they manage to delude the animal owners (and apparently themselves) into believing that the magic sugar pills do something. I also have an extensive knowledge of the veterinary homoeopathic literature, and I can tell you straight that there isn't the slightest shred of evidence from a properly controlled trial that it has any effect at all.

I'd be pleased to debate this matter with someone knowledgeable. However, Winston, as you've already told us that you know nothing at all about homoeopathy, please don't waste my time.

By the way, I'm not the only one round here with these qualifications. Come in, Badly Shaved Monkey, your favourite topic is on the cards....

Rolfe.
 
Draw a line under this one, folks. Winston is just peddling Benneth's barrow for him.
 
WWu777 two words

Observer bias
 
Ad populum.

Anyway neither of the posted links provides evidence that homeopathy works.
 
Rolfe said:
I'm a veterinary surgeon. I have an extensive knowledge of what veterinary homoeopaths do, and how they manage to delude the animal owners (and apparently themselves) into believing that the magic sugar pills do something. I also have an extensive knowledge of the veterinary homoeopathic literature, and I can tell you straight that there isn't the slightest shred of evidence from a properly controlled trial that it has any effect at all.
Click to expand...

Excellent. I am sure the readers of SkepticReport will love an article about what vetenarian homeopaths do, and how they manage to delude the animal owners.

I would.

Deadline's the 26th. :)
 
Prester John said:
Ad populum.

Anyway neither of the posted links provides evidence that homeopathy works.
Click to expand...
Prester John is quite right. All Winston has shown is that there are people advertising that they treat animals with homoepathy, and that some people are foolish enough to avail themselves of this service. If he likes, I'll give him another half-dozen or so even better links that he's missed.

Observer bias. Quite. Fact is, most things get better on their own. Perhaps even more so in veterinary medicine, when over-anxious owners run to the vet for things they wouldn't bother the doctor with if they had them themselves. Even things that aren't going to clear up spontaneously often fluctuate, so it's quite easy to pick the right moment to declare that there has been a massive improvement.

Then again:

Homoeopath: Oh, he is doing well, isn't he?
Owner (doubtfully): Well, maybe....
Homoeopath: Oh yes, look at that wet nose, and he's wagging his tail!
Owner: Isn't that wonderful!
Dog: I feel absolutely terrible, you freaking morons.

Obviously this lot isn't going to win every single time, but it certainly fools enough of the people enough of the time for a good number of crooks and charlatans to make a pretty nice living at it.

Meanwhile, back at the coal-face of real science....

It doesn't work on dermatitis
The pruritus was reduced by less than 50% in only 2/18 dogs; 1 of these dogs was receiving the homeopathic remedy, the other was receiving the placebo.
Click to expand...
It doesn't work on calf diarrhoea
No clinically or statistically significant difference between the 2 groups was demonstrated. Calves treated with Podophyllum had an average of 3.1 days of diarrhoea compared with 2.9 days for the placebo group. Depression, inappetence and fever were presented equally in the 2 groups. These results support the widely held opinion that scientific proof for the efficacy of veterinary homeopathy is lacking. In the European Union this implies a considerable risk for animal welfare, since in some countries priority is given to homeopathic treatments in organic farming.
Click to expand...
and it doesn't work on lungworm in calves either.
The last paper isn't available on-line, but there is a summary of the results on this page:
No antibody could be demonstrated in either group, mortality in both groups was high, and there was no difference in the number or morphology of the worms recovered from the groups post mortem. The conclusion was that "There were no discernable differences between the treated and the control groups in their manifestations of resistance to D. viviparus or their clinical responses to the diseases produced."
Click to expand...
Anyone choosing homoeopathic treatment for a genuinely sick pet may come to regret this bitterly.

Rolfe.
 
WWu777 said:
Something that John Benneth posted to his list:

--------------------------------
Critics of homeopathy say that it's nothing more than a placebo. How is
it then that there is this growing field of veterinary homeopathy?
Despite all their whining, the critics of homeopathy just can't seem to
stop the use of it in some rather odd situations for a placebo . . .

INSIDE the immune system
Casa Grande Valley Newspapers - Casa Grande, AZ, USA
... Dr. Stolz has been studying veterinary homeopathy acupuncture and
nutrition
since 1988,. She treats animals and people holistically ...
<http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11023407&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept
_id=222089&rfi=6>

FAMILY, pet home health care series
Apple Valley Sun Current - Apple Valley, MN, United States
... March 2 Tamplin will discuss homeopathy, its history and practice,
along with suggestions for homeopathic remedies that can be used for
simple
first aid ...
<http://www.mnsun.com/story.asp?city=Apple_Valley&story=130230>
Click to expand...
Your point is.... ?
 
A very simple inexpensive urine test will determine, according to your metabolism, what you need. The urine sample is collected in the privacy of your own home, sent overnight by Fed Ex to the top metabolic testing lab in the country.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that human fluids could be sent to/by/for Dr Stolz via Fedex. I'm sure the delivery guys and package processors would feel safe, or at least clean knowing they're handling human exrement material.

Also, please tell me again how such complete metabolic process and lack of nutrient material can be found in the urine? What tests are run? How is it a pee test is required to find out what a person is lacking, nutrient-wise, when a simple visit to a real medical doctor or a registered dietician would be so much less messy? How can someone advocate this testing method for animals? Which "top metabolic lab" would be used? how does the homeopath supply company know when your needs change with hormonal fluctuations, age, the seasons, or time of day? (yes yes, through the urine test, I see that now...) And most importantly, would I have to give up pie?

Anyone choosing homoeopathic treatment for a genuinely sick pet may come to regret this bitterly.
Click to expand...

Unless they are fooled, again, Rolfe, to blame the mainstream medicine, as has happened.
 
Wu old chap, I used to be polite about the defenders of veterinary homeopathy, but having spent more than a year now debating these idiots and their hangers-on I am left with only one question, as has been said before are they innocent idiots or criminal. Some of what they say and do is so obviously untrue that I tend to the latter view.

Rolfe and I share a set of stories concerning hyperthyroid cats in which the woo-woo claims the patient is getting better when it is patently not.

This is not observer bias. This is observer lying.

One problem is of getting bored rebutting the rubbish they spout. Sadly there's only so many ways you can keep saying "prove it, oh no you can't" before you run out of variety. Perhaps its time to collate all the rebuttals and put up the collection in a public source and just post the link "I refer you to my previous response"!
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
This is not observer bias. This is observer lying.
Click to expand...
Well, there you have it. BSM is perhaps a little more direct, but we are essentially of the same mind.

The amount of embellishment and sheer invention that goes on is astounding, and to some, unbelievable. Which is to a large extent why homoeopathy still has some diplomatic immunity within the profession - many people are reluctant to believe that fellow-professionals can be so unthruthful, and back away to give them the benefit of the "doubt".


Now, I've posted this one before, but I'll mention it again just for spite.

The most dangerous page on the Internet.

This is a page about the homoeopathic treatment of "bloat" (torsion of the stomach) in dogs. This condition has been described as "the mother of all emergencies". It's about the one thing that is guaranteed to get a vet out of bed before his eyes are even open, sharpening his scalpel as he goes. Immediate surgery is essential, otherwise the dog will die in extreme agony. I once had to do a post-mortem on a dog which had died of this because he was out of earshot of any humans at the time. His stomach was ruptured. It must have been a horrific death.

This page correctly lists the clinical signs ("according to Betty", which suggests that the (non-veterinary) homoeopath in question has never even seen a case for herself), and correctly notes "death ensues from shock". It then launches on a typical homoeopathic symptom-match with various remedies, and comes up with a selection of 9 or 10.
DOSAGE IN THIS SITUATION....

I would suggest a 30C potency, 1 pellet in 1/8 cup of water, stir until dissolved (or at least partially dissolved) and put an eyedropper of the medicine into the dog's mouth every 5 minutes. If there is no relief in 10 mintues, switch remedies. The same dosage would apply: An eyedropperful every 5 minutes until the symptoms ease or are gone. Use up to 6 doses.
Click to expand...
That's it. No suggestion that if the dog is no better in (oh, let's see, about 30 seconds!) it might be a good idea to call a vet. In fact, the information that the condition can be surgically cured isn't even on the web page.

Assuming that the diagnosis is correct in the first place, an owner following this advice would sit there caringly dropping magic water into the dog's mouth until it died. Shock, extreme agony, words fail me.

This is criminally irresponsible, but it's actually par for the course for homoeopathy - in theory, it can cure anything. Just a pity nobody lets them have a free hand with type I diabetes or whatever, because then they'd show us! I can only hope that there is no dog owner so brain dead that he or she would actually pay any attention to this advice.

And the homoeopaths wonder why I don't like them?

Rolfe.
 
Is this another WW hit and run troll post? Take a hint, learn something about science, or even the paranormal case you are making, then lets talk.
 
Oh, he even said straight out that he knows nothing about homoeopathy, and wouldn't discuss it.

We've just been having fun.

Rolfe.
 
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