Homeopathy challenge question
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brodski
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either would be an acceptable test, alternatively just being able to tell a "high potency" remedy from the stock solvent (by whatever means, including by measuring its effects on people) would net you the million.
Proving that homeopathy was effective may be a little more tricky, medical ethics and all that, remember the JREF will not accept an application which may put someone at risk.
Oh, and welcome.
Thank you for the welcome
Ok, here comes the trick question:
I'm convinced that it is possible to prove with a rather simple lab test that there are molecules in a homeopath (above 12c of course), but if I state that lab test in public (meaning the forum), anyone will be able to perform it and take credit for it. How can I move forward with this challenge without telling, until I make my own tests and then fill in the application, or not even in the application?
How can I stablish a protocol if stablishing it will mean to reveal the lab tests that you can make in any medium to large laboratory without a significant cost?
Again, thanks and I hope you can help me figure this out.
Ok, here comes the trick question:
I'm convinced that it is possible to prove with a rather simple lab test that there are molecules in a homeopath (above 12c of course), but if I state that lab test in public (meaning the forum), anyone will be able to perform it and take credit for it. How can I move forward with this challenge without telling, until I make my own tests and then fill in the application, or not even in the application?
How can I stablish a protocol if stablishing it will mean to reveal the lab tests that you can make in any medium to large laboratory without a significant cost?
Again, thanks and I hope you can help me figure this out.
Ririon
Cool cat
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You do not have to state the details of the lab test. Just say that you "using my own unspecified lab equipment in less that N hours, I can differentiate between 12c homeopathic medicine and stock solvent."
You may add:
"To make sure you do not think I am just measuring contaminants, I am prepared to have the control samples go through the same production process (minus the mother tincture) at the same time as the homeopathic medicine. I suggest the standard traditional Hahnemann method is used."
(That's a comment on some other threads.)I would suggest you state in your application that you can distinguish between a high potency homeopathic preparation and the stock solvent. You do not need to state how you will do it. For instance, you could try to work out in the protocol that you'd be given 10 unlabeled vials, half of which contain the remedy and the other half stock solvent. You can then take these to your lab, perform whatever tests you want on them, identify the 5 that do contain molecules form the mother tincture, and report back. You'd need to get 8 right, I believe tho I could be wrong, to pass the preliminary.
I think Donks is on the right track. If your solvent is water, and you can tell the difference between water and 12c Belladonna or whatever, using whatever equipment you'd like, I think that would do it.
Steps would have to be taken to remove the risk of tampering.
Steps would have to be taken to remove the risk of tampering.
LordoftheLeftHand
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Assuming you are using water as a solvent, there will still be other molecules present above Avogadro’s limit. The trick is that there is no such thing as pure water. So every time you add water you add a few contaminates with it. That is why it is suggested that a good test would be for someone to correctly “detect” 30C solutions from just plain solvent.
If you can do this then there is something fundamentally wrong with our understanding of basic chemistry. Good luck.
LLH
If you can do this then there is something fundamentally wrong with our understanding of basic chemistry. Good luck.
LLH
Jackalgirl
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I'd like to see someone not just identify "molecules", but be able to identify which substance is "in" a solution. So, for example, if I have a list of 8 different solutions (plus, say, two bottles of plain solvent), I'd really like to see a homeopath correctly label all of them.
-- Jackalgirl
Rasmus
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<rant>
Right. It bothers me to no end, it p***es me off royally when peolpe say that. Molecules? Of course there will be friggin molecules, else you would be working with a bottle of ACME vacuum.
Please, be specific. Not too much to ask for an easy million bucks, right?
</rant>
Now you've got me very curious ... do you actually believe in homoeopathy, or think that the diluting process will leave traces even if you were to use identical substances to be mixed?
i.e. would your test still work, if Ririon's suggestion was a mandatory part of the protocol? I would not be surprised to learn that all the pouring from bottle to bottle, the measuring and shaking would change a liquid. (If the liquid was beer, I'd bet it'd be stall after the procedure .... maybe there are related effects for water or alcohol.)
Others have suggested possible protocols; you might even be able to have the solutions delivered to you by mail for the preliminary tests.
Rasmus.
I think that would be his method.
One thing that I don't understand - if he can detect something in those higly diluted potions, that simply means that it has not been diluted to the specified potency, doesn't it?
I think it's illogical, and as such the claim should not even be tested.
If anything can be detected through the measurement of contaminants etc. that means that the dilution process wasn't good enough, and the resulting potion doesn't have the specified dilution level, so we're not really testing the ability to distinguish high potency dilution from the solvant, but we're testing thequality of the process. (after all, what is the definition of homeopathic potency, and do their potions satisfy those requirements?)
Besides, haven't we established that with the quality of the labs homeopaths have access to, it would be impossible to produce a dilution of those high potencies anyway?
I for one, wouldn't have it any other way...
Perhaps you need to be aware that, by definition, if there ARE molecules of the original MT still present in a 12C or higher remedy, then it is NOT a 12C or higher remedy! What you have is either a very poor dilution process, or tampering.
And given the descriptions we have seen from various homeopaths, the former is very much the higher likelihood.
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
I think we need to dilute the control samples as well. This is to ensure that you are not detecting the dilution process. For example if the solvent was beer, you dilute some beer with the same type of beer. Then you would have beer diluted with beer (control sample) and drug diluted with beer (drug sample).
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
Personally, I like the idea of using two different homeopathic remedies, both prepared identically except for using a different moter tincture for each.
Just correctly identify which is which
Just correctly identify which is which
Lothian
should be banned
I don’t think this is a valid test. We do give the homeopaths grief for not understanding simple maths (math for yanks) but....
It is quite possible for some of the mother substance (is that the name?) to appear in very high dilutions. Taking a random 100th and diluting each time does not guarantee you will get rid of all traces. Obviously the chance that there will be none in at C13 and above moves from possibly true to probably true to highly probable but it will never reach definitely true.
There is nothing supernatural in molecules being left, or in a lab finding some.
What would pass a test is a homeopathic mixture (with none or very few mother molecules) in it producing results beyond placebo.
It is quite possible for some of the mother substance (is that the name?) to appear in very high dilutions. Taking a random 100th and diluting each time does not guarantee you will get rid of all traces. Obviously the chance that there will be none in at C13 and above moves from possibly true to probably true to highly probable but it will never reach definitely true.
There is nothing supernatural in molecules being left, or in a lab finding some.
What would pass a test is a homeopathic mixture (with none or very few mother molecules) in it producing results beyond placebo.
Rasmus
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True.
But at high-enough-levels of dilution, if you find a molecule of the active ingredient it is as likely to be contamination as traces of the mother tincture that was used.
So, as long as the JREF produces the dilutions or obtains them fro ma trustworthy source, it is "paranormal" to be able to tell apart the dilution from the stock solvent 9 times out of 10.
Yes, it is possible that a sample of C13 might still be showing traces of the mother tincture. But that might aid the applicant in one of the trials at best. Leaving another 8 bottles to be identified by other means. If they can do that, they have earned a million dollars. And if the JREF didn't make sure everything was properly stirred and shaken beforehand, they just don't deserve any better.
Rasmus.
I have understood that even though contamination makes it likely that some mother molecules will be left, the serial dilutions ensure that the concentration is so low that no laboratory will be able to trace them. Or more specifically, that no laboratory will be able to find something that will not also be found in the stock solvent.
In any case, I imagine that the JREF will demand tight control over the manufacture of the homoeopathic dilutions, and surely, contaminations will be kept at a minimum.
Maybe to avoid this technicall troubles regarding the ocurrence of finding "any molecules" in the test, 20 vials, 10 with a supposedly ingredient, and 10 with other can be used, all of them in above 12C dillutions, and the applicant should determine which is which...
Rasmus
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I think this places an undue extra-burden on the applicant.
It is one thing to be able to detect a homoeopathic effect in a solution vs. none. It's simply another issue to be able to tell apart different homoeopathic effects.
Also, if there should be traces of the active ingredient in any of the samples, it wouldn't matter either way: Any such sample could be identified, anyways.
Rasmus.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
They should be able to tell them apart by observing "proving" symptoms (if they exist outside the imaginations of homoeopaths).