Homeopathy awareness week in Ireland

[Drooper]

Guess what I found out this morning over my cornflakes. It is Homeopathy awareness week in Ireland!!!! That means unfounded claims, uncritical articles and blatant propaganda in the national press. In the weekly health supplement to the Irish Times a good splash of articles, with the major one entitled:

Frequent flyers find natural cure

One of the worst parts is the summary in the byline that states:

Many people are finding the consultations and minimalist medicines of homeopathy an effective alternative to conventional medicine

It may be nicely phrased to avoid any false statements, as in "people find", but there is no doubt what the strongest point is here:

Homeopathay as an alternative.


I want to write a letter to the paper pointing out that this nonsense can hardly be an alternative and probably not even a compliment (beyond offering some psychological crutch) and I would like to include some phrase that captures the true efficacy of homeopathy.

Ideally, I would like to write that homeopathy has no proven effectivness against any medical condition.

For those people better informed about the way homeopathy is practised my question is, would this statement be accurate? I know it is at the "high potency" end of the scale, it goes without saying. But can I make the generalisation and still be strictly accurate?

 

[Benguin]

Even at low potency there is nothing in it. Homeopathy is not only flawed down to the diluting-beyond-all-reason aspect, they also have no proof for the like-cures-like principle. So to cure vomiting you'd take a remedy that in a non-homeopathic concentration would normally induce vomiting.


They tend to point to vaccines and a highly dodgy study on mercury poisoning to support the argument of like curing like, but there is no good scientific evidence.

You're fairly safe on this one, some of the other CAMs may have the capacity to produce an effect (beneficial or detrimental) and so generalisations are not so easy to make.

 

[MRC_Hans]

You can safely say that hoemopathic remedies have not been scientifically shown to have any effect over placebo.

This does not mean that some of the very low potencies, where considerable portions of actual substance still remains, may not have some physical effect, but that is not homeopathy.

I think one of the waknesses of science is that we are so shy of making definite statements. This leaves the field to those hat have no qualms at chanting "we KNOW it works".

Hans

 

[Sarah-I]

Just to correct you here, there are many remedies that can be given for vomiting, but it would have to correlate to the symptoms.

Mercury is a very effective remedy too.

I have quite a few very well documented cases, that show a conventional diagnosis, lab tests and other initial examinations both before and after that demonstrate that homeopathy does in fact work.

I saw some cases the other day of women who had been treated for post natal depression very effectively with homeopathic remedies. They had all been to see their GP's and were told that they would be given Prozac to help. They did not want to take Prozac for very obvious reasons, so went to consult a homeopath. The correct remedy did indeed work.

Science proves nothing conclusively, so why you keep on about this as your yardstick really defeats me!!

Good for Ireland. We have homeopathy awareness week in England during June. This year was a great success as always and is primarily arranged by the Society of Homeopaths.

 

[Sarah-I]

Yes Hans, science is most definitely flawed because it cannot prove everything in the world conclusively.

It is also incorrect to say that giving low potency remedies is not homeopathic. If you give the remedy to the patient in a homeopathic way, where it matches all the symptoms, then this is most definitely homeopathic. There are certain situations where homeopaths would want to give lower potency remedies to patients and this is done quite a lot. Lower potencies most definitely are homeopathic if prescribed in the correct way.

 

[geni]

Just to correct you here, there are many remedies that can be given for vomiting, but it would have to correlate to the symptoms.

Mercury is a very effective remedy too.

Prove it

I have quite a few very well documented cases, that show a conventional diagnosis, lab tests and other initial examinations both before and after that demonstrate that homeopathy does in fact work.

n=1 studies prove nothing

I saw some cases the other day of women who had been treated for post natal depression very effectively with homeopathic remedies. They had all been to see their GP's and were told that they would be given Prozac to help. They did not want to take Prozac for very obvious reasons, so went to consult a homeopath. The correct remedy did indeed work.

We know how effective the placebo effect can be in cases of mental health. You will note that what we have here is an n=1 sample that was not even randomly selected

Science proves nothing conclusively, so why you keep on about this as your yardstick really defeats me!!

you have a better alturnative?

Good for Ireland. We have homeopathy awareness week in England during June. This year was a great success as always and is primarily arranged by the Society of Homeopaths.

If by great sucess you mean that coverage was so low that most sceptics missed it completely then you may have a case.

 

[geni]

It is also incorrect to say that giving low potency remedies is not homeopathic. If you give the remedy to the patient in a homeopathic way, where it matches all the symptoms, then this is most definitely homeopathic. There are certain situations where homeopaths would want to give lower potency remedies to patients and this is done quite a lot. Lower potencies most definitely are homeopathic if prescribed in the correct way.

The reason for any effect in these cases is pharmicalogical.

 

[Quasi]

Yes Hans, science is most definitely flawed because it cannot prove everything in the world conclusively.

It is also incorrect to say that giving low potency remedies is not homeopathic. If you give the remedy to the patient in a homeopathic way, where it matches all the symptoms, then this is most definitely homeopathic. There are certain situations where homeopaths would want to give lower potency remedies to patients and this is done quite a lot. Lower potencies most definitely are homeopathic if prescribed in the correct way.

I agree that from the homeopathic standpoint, giving a low potency remedy in the context of homeopathy is homeopathic, if that statement makes any sense. I think that the cultural differences between scientists and homeopaths is a big problem. I also belive that homeopathic organizations and schools suppress evidence that homeopathy does not work, and deliberately teaches homeopaths that critical thinking is wrong. If you look at homeopathy under conditions which prevent self delusion and cheating, homeopathy has no effect. Even the history of Homeopathy has been rewritten to make it appear that Hahnemann invented it, which he did not. But enough of that, the JREF one million is still there for you or any homeopath who can tell a high potency remedy from the stock solvent using any means, as long as it is done under controlled conditions. Care to apply?

 

[Benguin]

I agree that from the homeopathic standpoint, giving a low potency remedy in the context of homeopathy is homeopathic, if that statement makes any sense.

I think I'll stay agnostic on that one! It is certainly the case that Homeopaths can and do give low potency remedies. Reactions are then possible and explicable.

Homeopathy itself still relies on the like-cures-like principle (law of similars) that is, after all, what the name is meant to indicate. It is an odd, unproven and dogmatic theory which has not advanced at all since Hahnemann dreamed it up 200 years ago.

There was some suggestion a while back that low dose arsenic might help vomiting, I don't know what happened with those studies, but even if it does prove to be efficacious that doesn't prove anything for homeopathy, other than a lucky hit.

 

[Sarah-I]

Yes, ARSENICUM ALBUM is a remedy that is good for both diarrhoea and vomiting, there are also lots of other remedies that are also good for this including remedies such as IPECAC, NUX VOMICA, DROSERA and others.

Of course homeopathy has developed during the last 200 years. The basic principles and underlying philosophy remain the same, but this is so with lots of things. Ways of analysing cases has been developed and improved by the likes of Rajan Sankaran and other Indian homeopaths, ways of studying remedies has differed and improved so that it is possible to reach smaller remedies within family groupings that may be more similar that other polycrest remedies, this has been done by Mangialavori and others and lots of new remedies have been proved. New provings have been undertaken by Jeremy Sherr at his Dynamis School for advanced studies in homeopathy. Misha Norland has also undertaken them at his homeopathy school too.

 

[Ladewig]

I saw some cases the other day of women who had been treated for post natal depression very effectively with homeopathic remedies. They had all been to see their GP's and were told that they would be given Prozac to help. They did not want to take Prozac for very obvious reasons, so went to consult a homeopath. The correct remedy did indeed work.

And I saw a case where a woman was threated for depression with homeopathic remedies and she remained depressed.

Perhaps what is needed is a way to measure the number of people getting better and the number of people not getting better.

Yes Hans, science is most definitely flawed because it cannot prove everything in the world conclusively.

And that would be quite a flaw if the goal of science were to prove everything in the world conclusively. On the other hand, because science is so good at proving some things conclusively, it seems to be just the right tool for determining which medicines are effective, non-effective or actually harmful.

Quasi
But enough of that, the JREF one million is still there for you or any homeopath who can tell a high potency remedy from the stock solvent using any means,

That means you can feed the remedy and the sovent to people or to farm animals or to cultures. Or you can taste them or smell them or listen to them. Or you can use devices or your hands or dowsing sticks to detect energy differences. You don't have to explain why they are detectably different, you just have to distinguish between them.

A million dollars cash and tens of millions of dollars of publicity.

Prozak might not be the cure-all that some claim it to be, but even high school students can be taught to distinguish between a pile of prozak and a pile of starch.

 

[Benguin]

Yes, ARSENICUM ALBUM is a remedy that is good for both diarrhoea and vomiting, ....

I think you misunderstood me. The study I'm thinking of was referring to low potency, low dose as in (I suppose) 4C or higher. not 30C or anything like that.

In other words, an effect may be observed but for reasons that are not homeopathic.

Prozak might not be the cure-all that some claim it to be, but even high school students can be taught to distinguish between a pile of prozak and a pile of starch.

Furthermore, if prozac is found to be ineffective, or not worth it, or whatever it is not the end of anyone's world view. Just something we've learned and the basis of future research.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, ARSENICUM ALBUM is a remedy that is good for both diarrhoea and vomiting, there are also lots of other remedies that are also good for this including remedies such as IPECAC, NUX VOMICA, DROSERA and others.

Stuck record time again.

Evidence, please. And not single hand-picked case anecdotes either.

Sarah, you have no evidence. You seem to be a fairly intelligent person in general terms. What is it about these requests for proof and your manifest inability to satisfy them that you have such a blind spot about?

Rolfe.

 

[Sarah-I]

Benguin,

4c is still a homeopathic potency and if Arsenicum were given for D and V, then it is still working homeopathically in just the same way as a 30c would be. I have not misunderstood you at all. Perhaps it is you that misunderstand!

Perhaps the person/homeopath who prescribed for this depressed woman did not get the right remedy. If you do not prescribe the right remedy then it will not work.

A homeopath friend of mine told me about a case of Post Natal Depression that she saw where just the same kind of thing that you have described happened. She took the case and analysed it and decided to give the remedy NATRUM MURIATICUM. She gave this remedy in a 200c potency and nothing at all happened.

The patient came back for a follow-up consultation sometime later and said that she felt just the same and that nothing had changed. The homeopath asked some more questions and she got some more information that she was able to include in her previous case analysis. This new information lead her to prescribe the remedy IGNATIA. She gave one dose of a 200c and within three days things had started to change for the better.

The patient then returned for another follow-up consultation and because the Ignatia had worked so well, other symptoms started to come to the fore. The homeopath then took these new symptoms into account and realised that they all pointed towards PHOSPHORUS as the chronic/constitutional remedy for that patient. She was given one dose of Phosphorus 1M and has continued to do very well since this time and has not needed any other remedy at all.

If you get the wrong remedy it will not work, but if you get the right remedy it will.

Unfortunately, all Prozac does for the most part is mask all the symptoms and detach people from their feelings so that they cannot feel at all. By doing this, people are unable to deal with the real causes of these feelings and will take longer to recover. It also has side effects too.

 

[Rolfe]

if you get the right remedy it will [work].

Boring, I know, but you still haven't provided any evidence at all to show that the remedies do anything at all.

Rolfe.

 

[Benguin]

Benguin,

4c is still a homeopathic potency and if Arsenicum were given for D and V, then it is still working homeopathically in just the same way as a 30c would be. I have not misunderstood you at all. Perhaps it is you that misunderstand!

Illogical. It may be working homeopathically. Just because you stick one of your labels on does not mean everything that subsequently happens can be called homeopathic.

In any case, there are no decent studies to support the claim. All we ever get are a few suggestions something could merit further research. That has yet to yield anything approaching proof.

Perhaps the person/homeopath who prescribed for this depressed woman did not get the right remedy. If you do not prescribe the right remedy then it will not work.

What would happen to a homeopath who frequently got it wrong, I wonder?

A homeopath friend of mine told me about a case of Post Natal Depression that she saw where just the same kind of thing that you have described happened. She took the case and analysed it and decided to give the remedy NATRUM MURIATICUM. She gave this remedy in a 200c potency and nothing at all happened.

The patient came back for a follow-up consultation sometime later and said that she felt just the same and that nothing had changed. The homeopath asked some more questions and she got some more information that she was able to include in her previous case analysis. This new information lead her to prescribe the remedy IGNATIA. She gave one dose of a 200c and within three days things had started to change for the better.

The patient then returned for another follow-up consultation and because the Ignatia had worked so well, other symptoms started to come to the fore. The homeopath then took these new symptoms into account and realised that they all pointed towards PHOSPHORUS as the chronic/constitutional remedy for that patient. She was given one dose of Phosphorus 1M and has continued to do very well since this time and has not needed any other remedy at all.

If you get the wrong remedy it will not work, but if you get the right remedy it will.

Cracking anecdote. Still strikes me a serial abuse of ad hoc ergo propter hoc, but never mind.

Unfortunately, all Prozac does for the most part is mask all the symptoms and detach people from their feelings so that they cannot feel at all. By doing this, people are unable to deal with the real causes of these feelings and will take longer to recover. It also has side effects too.

I've known people on prozac, and I've also known the reasons why they were on it. I too have some reservations about how they were, but I'm not clinically qualified to speculate beyond that.

No question they were in need of treatment of some description, so it is absolutely paramount they don't end up in the hands of a self-justifying sugar pill dispenser.

 

[geni]

A homeopath friend of mine told me about a case of Post Natal Depression that she saw where just the same kind of thing that you have described happened. She took the case and analysed it and decided to give the remedy NATRUM MURIATICUM. She gave this remedy in a 200c potency and nothing at all happened.

Why can't you call it sodium chloride or table salt like everyone else?

The patient came back for a follow-up consultation sometime later and said that she felt just the same and that nothing had changed. The homeopath asked some more questions and she got some more information that she was able to include in her previous case analysis. This new information lead her to prescribe the remedy IGNATIA. She gave one dose of a 200c and within three days things had started to change for the better.

The patient then returned for another follow-up consultation and because the Ignatia had worked so well, other symptoms started to come to the fore.

Prove it was the remedy that caused this change

The homeopath then took these new symptoms into account and realised that they all pointed towards PHOSPHORUS as the chronic/constitutional remedy for that patient. She was given one dose of Phosphorus 1M and has continued to do very well since this time and has not needed any other remedy at all.

dito

If you get the wrong remedy it will not work, but if you get the right remedy it will.

Not it will not. See my website for evidence.

 

[anonimouse]

Mercury is a very effective remedy too.

As long as we keep microscopic amounts of it out of vaccines, right?

 

[Sarah-I]

Geni,

I have just looked at your website and I have to say that it was well worth it purely for the comedy value involved. It gave me a good laugh - thanks.

Apart from this, it provides no proof of anything at all, it is full of spelling errors and technical homeopathic facts that are totally incorrect!!

There are lots of Mercury remedies that are widely used, including Mercurius, Mercurius Corrosivus, Mercurius Iodatus Flavus, Mercurious Iodatus Ruber and Mercurius Cyanatus.

 

[Quasi]

Benguin,

4c is still a homeopathic potency and if Arsenicum were given for D and V, then it is still working homeopathically in just the same way as a 30c would be. I have not misunderstood you at all. Perhaps it is you that misunderstand!

Perhaps the person/homeopath who prescribed for this depressed woman did not get the right remedy. If you do not prescribe the right remedy then it will not work.

Yet another problem which you state in the second paragraph is that maybe a homeopath did not prescribe the correct remedy. However, there are virtually no agreed upon rules in homeopathy! How can you make such a claim? The patient either eventually got better or died. I think it is a safe bet that most of them get better so who is to say the homeopathic remedy did not work? Do you think it might be possible to take people who have D and V, give some homeopathy (as you practice it,) give some people nothing or starch pills, then give then give the rest of the people allopathy and see what happens? Is there a problem here?