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Hillary Clinton says, "Papers, please!"

shanek

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
15,990
Well, the idea of a National ID card has been brought up by someone other than a right-wing warmonger who loves taking our rights, and the head of a tech company who'd love the revenues if his company were the one to manage it. Now, Senator Hillary Clinton has come out in favor of it as well, proving yet again how little difference there is between Democrats and Republicans.

http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/2/11/120029
 
Doesn't she realize it would have been something else she could have accidentally left on Vince Foster's body besides her hair?
 
What if you lose your ID card? She lost whitewater documents for 2 years before they suddenly appeared on a table.
 
corplinx said:
What if you lose your ID card? She lost whitewater documents for 2 years before they suddenly appeared on a table.

Oops! I accidentally dropped my National ID card in the paper shredder.

Silly me.
 
Blue Monk said:


Oops! I accidentally dropped my National ID card in the paper shredder.

Silly me.
Whats the problem? Your social security number is a de-facto ID card... In australia we have a photo drivers licence which is a defacto ID card, I'm assuming you have the same in the US?. There are various times when you must produce these forms of Id in Australia...opening a bank account, claiming money off the government etc. You have to provide your number to your employer so it can be passed to the taxation office etc.....hasn't the leap to an ID card already been shrunk to a very short hop?
 
I think identification should be a state priority and not a national one. A national ID card just serves to reinforce the nationalization of 50 very different country-sized states.
 
The Fool said:

Whats the problem? Your social security number is a de-facto ID card... In australia we have a photo drivers licence which is a defacto ID card, I'm assuming you have the same in the US?. There are various times when you must produce these forms of Id in Australia...opening a bank account, claiming money off the government etc. You have to provide your number to your employer so it can be passed to the taxation office etc.....hasn't the leap to an ID card already been shrunk to a very short hop?

I do have some problems with it though my comments were admittedly whimsical. I do not feel strongly about it, as I don’t believe it will ever happen but it does raise some interesting questions so allow me to play devil’s advocate here for a moment.

The Social Security number analogy is most interesting as it has become a fairly universal from of identification despite the fact, and this is important, that was not it’s original design.

I am sure this came about due to convenience but that does not negate the fact that tracking one’s Social Security number can now be a powerful form of invasion of privacy. When and where and under what circumstances it is used can reveal a great deal of information about an individual and in the wrong hands the potential for misuse is considerable.

Nixon’s misuse of the IRS should be clear reminder that we must always be aware of how policy like this can be dangerous if not closely guarded.

The SSN, however, can only reveal a very broad picture of an individual, mostly work related although here at UT it is used for Student Identification (another example of it’s unintended use).

A Driver’s License is something one acquires voluntarily but it has become the main form of identification. Even those who do not drive will often seek an equivalent form of State ID if only to enable one to cash checks. The Federal Government has little access to this information without going through the state judicial system.

But what benefit does the citizen receive of a National ID? None. Would it really work as a defense against illegal aliens? The only way for that to be effective would be for the National ID to be used so extensively for identification in our society as to make living in the US impossible without one and therein lies the rub.

The National ID ultimately serves one and only one purpose and that is as a means for the National government to centralize its surveillance of its citizens.

If a National ID were required of all citizens it would certainly replace both the SSN and driver’s license as the preferred form of ID as it would be the one ID all should have, with no variations or restrictions from state to state and more importantly eliminating all States Judicial oversight.

We would be presenting it when we traveled commercially, rented a car, cashed a check, rented a video etc. etc. etc.

The potential threat is that we could end up with a society where you are assigned a number at birth that you will need to survive and from that point on the Federal Government could monitor your activities down to disturbing detail, possibly able to note your drinking habits, travel habits, exactly what porn you prefer from your local video store, etc.

If there is one thing that any student of modern history should learn is that it matters not what any policy is designed to do. Power left lying around will be used and it will not always be used in our best interest.

The question is not how the National ID is intended to be implemented today but what are the dangers of how in can be misused 50 years from now.

In my opinion, no matter how harmless it may appear today, it’s extended use would only make it’s value as a surveillance tool grow and become all the more attractive and I would sooner believe in the tooth fairy than believe that that kind of raw power would go unnoticed and unexploited forever.
 
Whenever someone like a doctor or dentist's flunky, or in fact anyone other than my bank, credit card company or employer asks for my SSN, I tell them "sorry, I only give that to people who are legally required to have it. You aren't."

It works every time.

Just a tiny little monkey wrench in the Big Brother works.;)
 
GreyWanderer said:
I'm just wondering. What is the minimum information the government has about everyone now?

Right now it is still barely possible to stay completely unknown at the federal level.

Birth certificates are local so you would have to have no social security card, no drivers license (states share some of that info), not been in the military and never paid taxes.

I've known people my age with no social security card but that is damn near impossible if you're not some sort of artisan or such.

Probably the most revealing information one leaves behind (if someone were to look) are checking accounts and credit cards. If you use those regularly your life is pretty much an open book should anyone have access to that information and care to look.
 
Coming from a country where we all have numbers (issued at birth) i don't really see what you worrying about but off course it could be the usual American paranoia thinking "The state wants to know all about me so they can control me".

One thing caught me though:

Whenever someone like a doctor or dentist's flunky, or in fact anyone other than my bank, credit card company or employer asks for my SSN, I tell them "sorry, I only give that to people who are legally required to have it. You aren't."

Is there anything that prevents the doctor/dentist form saying "OK but then i won't accept you as a patient"? A lot of insurancecompagnies here is demanding access to your medical record before making a life insurance. Some years ago a law was passed that said you could refuse to grant them access, BRAVO but unfortunately they still have every right to say: "Fine but then we won't make your insurance".

This being said then i would much rather give my number to a doctor than i would give it to a credit card compagny.
 
Ove, I think the major issue is not everyone having numbers, it is a belief that the government wants "other" info on it. In the states most people have social security cards, in Canada we have a SIN (Social Insurance Number) cards. The cards suggested for use in Canada will have biometric info (finger print or something). People in general are uneasy about how easy it is for the government to collect information as it is.

And in the states, with recent changes to the laws, I'd atleast be concerned about the government wanting more info on me.

Walt
 
Ove said:
Coming from a country where we all have numbers (issued at birth) i don't really see what you worrying about but off course it could be the usual American paranoia thinking "The state wants to know all about me so they can control me".

One thing caught me though:



Is there anything that prevents the doctor/dentist form saying "OK but then i won't accept you as a patient"? A lot of insurancecompagnies here is demanding access to your medical record before making a life insurance. Some years ago a law was passed that said you could refuse to grant them access, BRAVO but unfortunately they still have every right to say: "Fine but then we won't make your insurance".

This being said then i would much rather give my number to a doctor than i would give it to a credit card compagny.

AFAIK, the law used to be that the only reason you could be required to give your SSN was for tax purposes. They've probably got it set up now so that they can do just what you ask about, but I have never had that happen. Generally speaking, simply leaving the relevant space on the form blank draws no reaction.

It's also my custom to alter the form consenting to treatment which you always have to sign so that the bit about allowing them to release my records to, well, pretty much anyone they want reads "I do not consent to the release of any information whatsoever to any third party unless I specifically authorize it in a separate written consent."

So far, no medico has ever given me any ◊◊◊◊ about that, either. If one does, I will simply take my business elsewhere. I'm the one who is paying for the service, and I carry no medical insurance, so as far as I'm concerned, the Medical Information Bureau (an insurance industry organization) can go whistle.
 
And in the states, with recent changes to the laws, I'd atleast be concerned about the government wanting more info on me.

Yep, i can understand that. With the present state of affairs in USA i woud be worried too. ;)
 
I think you all are missing the main point. It's not just the information the government would have on you, it's that any time the government can stop you and demand that you prove you're a legitimate citizen.
 
shanek said:
I think you all are missing the main point. It's not just the information the government would have on you, it's that any time the government can stop you and demand that you prove you're a legitimate citizen.

Or they throw you out?
 

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