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Help! My dog has a torn ACL!

aggle-rithm

Ardent Formulist
aggle-rithm
Joined
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My dog Mallory is having surgery next week to repair a partially torn cranial cruciate ligament (the equivalent to an ACL in humans). She's a border collie, so she kind of needs her knee. However, we are opting for the simpler graft surgery as opposed to the TPLO, which is normally done on high-performance dogs, because her temperament limits her to moderate activities.

My wife has been asking on a dog forum about how to support her nutritionally, post-operatively, and wants to cross-check the answers with people who may be a little more knowledgeable than those that recommend, say, homeopathy.

Someone (an ND...Naturopathic Doctor?) told her she should use a homeopathic arnica preparation...however, what I've seen is 4% arnica, so not really homeopathy. (The ND said we should use 200C, which is basically a sugar pill, unless I'm mistaken.)

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
Here's Mallory:

514647c0f615ec4d6.jpg
 
I would ask the vet. I mean, you're going to be paying a ton of money for this, right? They had darn well better be willing to give you some advice.

I would never trust anyone who offers homeopathic advice.

Beautiful puppy, BTW.
 
Partially torn?

One of our dogs did that back in September of 2007.
We initially thought it was a fully torn ACL (well, the canine equivalent thereof), but when the vet did a full check (which involved anaesthesia for the dog), we learned it was only partially torn.

Since it was only a partial tear, the vet told us that we didn't necessarily need surgery (which was a multi-thousand dollar relief), but instead had to keep her from moving for 2 weeks.

So for two weeks, Jade (11 year-old Jack Russel cross) was confined to her kennel, and had to be carried outside to relieve herself, and carried anywhere else if we took her out of her kennel. She wasn't thrilled, but it seems to have worked. She can put weight on her leg again, at any rate.

I'd suggest checking with your vet. It could be adifferent sort or severity of tear, of a difference in dog sizes necessitating surgery for your dog, but you never know.
 
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[X] said:
Partially torn?

One of our dogs did that back in September of 2007.
We initially thought it was a fully torn ACL (well, the canine equivalent thereof), but when the vet did a full check (which involved anaesthesia for the dog), we learned it was only partially torn.

Since it was only a partial tear, the vet told us that we didn't necessarily need surgery (which was a multi-thousand dollar relief), but instead had to keep her from moving for 2 weeks.

So for two weeks, Jade (11 year-old Jack Russel cross) was confined to her kennel, and had to be carried outside to relieve herself, and carried anywhere else if we took her out of her kennel. She wasn't thrilled, but it seems to have worked. She can put weight on her leg again, at any rate.
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The weight of the dog makes a lot of difference. According to the literature I've read, the cutoff point is 20 pounds for conservative management vs. surgery. Ours is over 40 pounds.

I'd suggest checking with your vet. It could be adifferent sort or severity of tear, of a difference in dog sizes necessitating surgery for your dog, but you never know.
Click to expand...

The surgeon won't be available for questions until the day of the surgery. Also, a lot of vets (from what I hear) don't necessarily know much about nutrition. (My wife tells me that a vet she's talked to said they only got 8 hours of nutrition training in vet school, and it was sponsored by a pet food company.)
 
biostudent said:
I would ask the vet. I mean, you're going to be paying a ton of money for this, right? They had darn well better be willing to give you some advice.

I would never trust anyone who offers homeopathic advice.
Click to expand...

I got in trouble with my wife today in the pharmacy, as we were looking at the homeopathic snake oil, for saying too loudly, "they're just sugar pills! Don't waste any money on this crap!"

Beautiful puppy, BTW.
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Yes, she is! A deceptively angelic countenance.
 
I think it is clear. Keep the dog. Lose the wife. :)

But, to be serious for a moment.

There are various surgical options and conservative treatment may be adequate in some cases. There is a big difference between the acutely traumatically damaged ligament and the ACL that has chronically degraded. There are a great many factors involved and much of the discussion is dependent on the exact clinical circumstances of the individual patient and the owners attitudes to surgery and costs. I would not presume to comment on a case that I have not personally assessed.

Comments about vets' paucity of nutritional education general come from sources that have a very distinct agenda to push. You may get a lot of very definitive opinion about what you "must" do to aid recovery using nutrition. I would be astonished if the strength of that opinion was matched by the strength of any evidence to support it.

As far as we can know homeopathy is a complete waste of time in all circumstances. It is a waste of money, but more importantly may serve to distract from what is really going on. I don't have an opinion on arnica as a herbal ingredient in real pharmaceutical amounts, but I would not be keen on anything that involved sticking stuff on a dog's skin near a surgical site.
 
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Arnica is supposed to be a mild anti-inflammatory, but it does nothing. Not even mild.
 
My dog Gus had the TPLO surgery last November. Her weight had a lot to do with it. Before the surgery she was pushing 90 pounds, now she's around 80. The vet said, "One cup of dog food a day." The day of her diagnosis was a lot worse for me emotionally. I didn't want people to think that I was a bad doggy daddy. She started limping the end of October, and I thought it was just her arthritis, which she's had problems with two years ago. Arthritis would have been cheaper.
For her surgery they had to shave her entire left rear leg, and a square on her spine for the epidural. The hair is still growing back, and the vet said it will take about a year to grow back completely. It's a great conversation starter.
Get better Mallory!
 
I was going to type something, but BSM said it.

BTW, BSM, we've got a new live homoeopath in General Scepticism. She's citing Day, among others. Happy times!

Rolfe.
 
Mojo said:
Cranial? Knee? :confused:
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Cranial (vs caudal) is a direction, meaning headwards (vs tailwards). Humans stand up on their back legs so standard human nomenclature is actually rather a special case, so we have anterior/posterior for front/back and superior/inferior for up/down. Other species are standardised with cranial/caudal for front/back and dorsal/ventral for up/down.

"knee" is not used properly in animals but is used casually for "stifle". Both refer to the femorotibial joint.
 
To be complete, in the distal limb (past the carpus or tarsus) you should use dorsal/palmar or dorsal/plantar. Within the head, cranial becomes meaningless so you have rostral caudal and inside the mouth me are supposed to use dentist's terminology but most of us can't be bothered with mesial and distal all having special meanings in the mouth.
 
My dog Jessie (a boxer/mastiff x) tore her major cruciat ligament mid last year while chasing a rabbit.

Like others have said, her weight was a major contributing factor. (she was 42kg, now down to a healthy 35kg).

After the surgery we had to keep Jessie confined in a cage for about 4 months to prevent her putting pressure on the joint.

She now walks with a slight limp and isn't allowed to go for runs or play with other dogs for long but at least she can walk without any pain.

Medication wise, we give Jessie a standard fishoil capsule with her meals as well as a joint guard powder from the Vet. This is meant to help strenghten her joints to prevent another accident and to also lessen her arthritis.

If you want any specific information about the surgery itself or anything else just let me know and I'll go through Jessie's records for you.
 
Thanks for everybody's comments. One of the other things we were wondering about was what lengths we should go to for doggy ergonomics, post-op. We want to avoid having her go up and down steps, but there is some confusion about what constitutes a "step". If it's a two- or three-inch drop, is it a step, or can it be considered a level surface for all intents and purposes?

FYI, I'm asking more questions than usual because my wife is standing over my shoulder, telling me what to type. She found the "lose the wife, keep the dog" comment especially helpful. ;)
 
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Haywire said:
My dog Gus had the TPLO surgery last November. Her weight had a lot to do with it. Before the surgery she was pushing 90 pounds, now she's around 80. The vet said, "One cup of dog food a day." The day of her diagnosis was a lot worse for me emotionally. I didn't want people to think that I was a bad doggy daddy. She started limping the end of October, and I thought it was just her arthritis, which she's had problems with two years ago. Arthritis would have been cheaper.
For her surgery they had to shave her entire left rear leg, and a square on her spine for the epidural. The hair is still growing back, and the vet said it will take about a year to grow back completely. It's a great conversation starter.
Get better Mallory!
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Ironically, I think WE were the cause of Mallory's injury. Like a lot of high-drive dogs, she likes to jump up on people and "tag" them. We tried various methods to discourage this, and ended up with a behavior where she starts to jump up on us, then thinks better of it in mid-maneuver and twists to the side at the last minute.

This twisting motion while jumping is very likely what caused the injury. :(
 
In my case, the vet said it could be caused by
- jumping/large steps
- running/activity
- being run over by a larger dog

In our case, we have all three happen often.
 
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