Hate speech

LibraryLady

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Several forum threads in the past few days have made me think about hate speech. By “hate speech,” I mean that which is directed against a specific group of people in such a way as to convey a blanket animus and which attempts to incite similar feelings in others. In other words, “LibraryLady sucks” is not what I refer to. “Librarians are radical militant terrorists who should be lined up against the wall and shot until none are left” is.

Many people here have commented upon the fact that hate speech is not against the Membership Agreement. It is not against the United States Constitution either. And I agree with both documents entirely. Free speech is a principle I hold dear. My right to ignore speech is something I hold dear as well.

Naturally, hate speech ceases to be free speech when it incites others to commit illegal acts. “Librarians are militant radical terrorists who should be shot. We have guns. Let’s go shoot them.” Is not free speech; it is conspiracy.

All of this being said, let’s take a look at hate speech and what it is.

The very first thing I notice about hate speech is that it is tedious. Seriously, it is rare to read hate filled rhetoric that transcends the sixth grade level. It’s kind of like pornography that way, isn’t it? There only so many ways to say, “They did it” before it just becomes repetitive and silly. The vocabulary in hate speech is usually pretty limited and the literary devices are few and far between. There is hate speech that transcends this, just as there is well written porn, but it’s unusual and usually doesn’t fulfill its purpose. The target audiences are usually not those who have an education or an appreciation of such things. They are simply looking for someone to hate.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard or read any hate speech that explores new ground of any kind. Anti-Semites point to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or the blood libel. Racists talk about the curse of Ham or the studies by Lombroso, or variations thereof. This too makes sense. New ideas are hard to think about. The intended audience doesn’t really want to put in the effort.

What hate speech occasionally does well is to arouse emotion. Fear is the target of the hated and anger the target of the haters. However, even here there are failures sometimes, evoking amusement from the intended object or a united front of both the hated peoples and their sympathizers.

But.

It is important to remember that while we might be bored, perplexed, or amused by what we hear and read, that doesn’t mean it is benign. It is not.

There are people who do believe in what the hate speech says, and specifically incited or not, will act upon their beliefs. Abortion doctors keep their addresses secret for a reason. Do not underestimate it.

Be glad if you live in a society that allows hate speech. Be grateful for the Internet and the voice it gives to the haters. Know it is out there and seeing who says these things is half the battle. It is a part of our education. It disturbs our complacency.

Therefore, also be glad that our Membership Agreement allows this. Practice using constructive tools to make your arguments against it. It’s a training ground for the real world.
 
Several forum threads in the past few days have made me think about hate speech. By “hate speech,” I mean that which is directed against a specific group of people in such a way as to convey a blanket animus and which attempts to incite similar feelings in others. In other words, “LibraryLady sucks” is not what I refer to. “Librarians are radical militant terrorists who should be lined up against the wall and shot until none are left” is.

Well, to judge by some librarians I know...
 
Be glad if you live in a society that allows hate speech.

Many societies allow hate speech, so what? I'm glad I live in a society that allows both hate speech and the right to speak out against it.
 
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I think the phrase "hate speech" is a buzzword used to provoke a certain reaction when criticising speech you find offensive. So maybe one should just rationally contradict racist, bigoted, demeaning, exploitative or otherwise "bad" speech without resorting to this sort of rhetorical device in the first place. What do you think of that?

Could you, for example, criticise pornography with rational argument without trotting out the tired old feminist canards? Instead of implying that people who read/watch pornographic material have the intellect of a 6th grade child? I really take offense to that. You sound like a porn-hater. What's up with that?

I look forward to reading more of your well-credentialed posts in the future. Nothing beats having an award-winning moderator telling people how to think.

Well I hope I have baited you sufficiently, Library Lady. It did seem like you were "asking for it."

;)
 
I think the phrase "hate speech" is a buzzword used to provoke a certain reaction when criticising speech you find offensive. So maybe one should just rationally contradict racist, bigoted, demeaning, exploitative or otherwise "bad" speech without resorting to this sort of rhetorical device in the first place. What do you think of that?

I thought that was what I said. Work to contradict racist, bigoted, demeaning, exploitative or otherwise "bad" speech. I just used fewer words.

Could you, for example, criticise pornography with rational argument without trotting out the tired old feminist canards? Instead of implying that people who read/watch pornographic material have the intellect of a 6th grade child? I really take offense to that. You sound like a porn-hater. What's up with that?

I just said it was boring. Nothing too feminist about that, that I can see. Please cite the feminist canards I used. Most of the pornography I've read does have a limited vocabulary, just like hate speech. That's all I'm saying.

I look forward to reading more of your well-credentialed posts in the future. Nothing beats having an award-winning moderator telling people how to think.

I didn't win an award for being a moderator. I won a language award about 6 months ago. I'm sorry if my post seemed like it was telling you how to think. I wouldn't dream of that. I was trying to explain what I think is the best response to hate speech. Or more accurately, racist, bigoted, demeaning, exploitative or otherwise "bad" speech.

Well I hope I have baited you sufficiently, Library Lady. It did seem like you were "asking for it."

;)

I was indeed hoping to get a discussion going, if that is what you mean.
 
Oh yes, I will immediately support my sarcastic post with citations, you betcha.

In all seriousness, I don't think you can fall back on literality, when your post is so engorged with sub-text. Your intent and meaning are quite clear from your OP. You don't like hate speech.

I say, by simply referring to speech you find offensive as hate speech, you are exposed for the narrow-minded crusader that you are. By invoking my magic power of mind-reading, I was able to discern your motivation. And also, the fact that you are a porn-hater, and so, a feminist, and so, liable to belabour anyone who will listen with tired old femenist canards. There aren't any cites.

You see, I was able to look deep into your psychological make-up, your intentions, and your politics simply by reading one post by you.

Kind of like you do with "hate-speakers."
 
The very first thing I notice about hate speech is that it is tedious. Seriously, it is rare to read hate filled rhetoric that transcends the sixth grade level. It’s kind of like pornography that way, isn’t it? There only so many ways to say, “They did it” before it just becomes repetitive and silly.

I like your post otherwise, but I took small issue with this part. I think your assessment of pornography is unwarranted, and I suspect, based on a limited knowledge of the subject matter - kind of like assuming all beer must be bland and dull after only ever tasting Budweiser and Pabst.

Some of the artworks most dear to me qualify as pornography, and while they usually also have other elements, the sexual parts are very important. The suggestion that descriptions of sex are bound to become repetitive and silly seems ignorant to me.

Note that if we're talking about bulk pornography, I agree with your assessment. However, the reason for why the stuff is repetitive and silly isn't some inherent quality of all pornography; it's just that Budweiser is what most people want to buy.

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack your thread. Just putting it out there. :)
 
This is what I'm saying.

My point is that I think there should be a distinction between those societies that allow hate speech and those societies who allow it and have the ability to speak out against it.

I have another point you made regarding hate speech and the forums at the JREF. In another thread someone said that "colored corpses" should be used for pet food. That's not hate speech. That's a cry for attention.
 
I'm not trying to speak for LL but I think her point regarding porn is that hate speech is repetiative in the same way that porn is: "baby, baby you're so hot!" gets to be just as boring as "the Jews run the world!"
 
Oh yes, I will immediately support my sarcastic post with citations, you betcha.

In all seriousness, I don't think you can fall back on literality, when your post is so engorged with sub-text. Your intent and meaning are quite clear from your OP. You don't like hate speech.

I say, by simply referring to speech you find offensive as hate speech, you are exposed for the narrow-minded crusader that you are. By invoking my magic power of mind-reading, I was able to discern your motivation. And also, the fact that you are a porn-hater, and so, a feminist, and so, liable to belabour anyone who will listen with tired old femenist canards. There aren't any cites.

You see, I was able to look deep into your psychological make-up, your intentions, and your politics simply by reading one post by you.

Kind of like you do with "hate-speakers."

I'm not really a porn hater. I find the porn that I've encountered to be banal and silly. However, I will stipulate that my comparison might not have been appropriate. That being said, can we speak to the actual subject of the thread, i.e. hate speech?

I like your post otherwise, but I took small issue with this part. I think your assessment of pornography is unwarranted, and I suspect, based on a limited knowledge of the subject matter - kind of like assuming all beer must be bland and dull after only ever tasting Budweiser and Pabst.

Some of the artworks most dear to me qualify as pornography, and while they usually also have other elements, the sexual parts are very important. The suggestion that descriptions of sex are bound to become repetitive and silly seems ignorant to me.

I'm a little confused though. Are you saying that hate speech, or racist, bigoted, demeaning, exploitative or otherwise "bad" speech, is a positive thing?

Note that if we're talking about bulk pornography, I agree with your assessment. However, the reason for why the stuff is repetitive and silly isn't some inherent quality of all pornography; it's just that Budweiser is what most people want to buy.

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack your thread. Just putting it out there. :)
When I drank, I liked Heiniken, but understand your analogy perfectly. I confess to a limited experience and a bad comparison.
 
While I agree with the OP, free speech as it applies to this forum is problematic. It's quite acceptable to respond to people who make hate filled speeches in public by calling them idiots and worse. Try it here, even under extreme provocation, and you will be infracted.

I'm sure people also know that hate speech is not legal everywhere. Holocaust denial will have you arrested in many nations.
 
While I agree with the OP, free speech as it applies to this forum is problematic. It's quite acceptable to respond to people who make hate filled speeches in public by calling them idiots and worse. Try it here, even under extreme provocation, and you will be infracted.

I'm sure people also know that hate speech is not legal everywhere. Holocaust denial will have you arrested in many nations.

Which is why I'm encouraging people to use their skills to make constructive replies. Name calling is not included in that. Getting creative, countering arguments, etc. is. It won't change their minds, but it will inform other people.
 
It's quite acceptable to respond to people who make hate filled speeches in public by calling them idiots and worse. Try it here, even under extreme provocation, and you will be infracted.

Good point. In another thread someone posted that "colored corpses" should be used for pet food. If someone said that to me at say work, I'd hand them their head (verbally), rightfully so. Why should it be different here?
 
I'm sure people also know that hate speech is not legal everywhere. Holocaust denial will have you arrested in many nations.

I consider this to be one of the worst curtailments of freedom in those nations. People need the freedom to exchange ideas, even vastly unpopular ones, without running afoul of the law.
 
Good point. In another thread someone posted that "colored corpses" should be used for pet food. If someone said that to me at say work, I'd hand them their head (verbally), rightfully so. Why should it be different here?

Because those are the rules we have here. I'm sure at some work places handing someone their head (verbally) could get you written up if not fired.
 
Several forum threads in the past few days have made me think about hate speech. By “hate speech,” I mean that which is directed against a specific group of people in such a way as to convey a blanket animus and which attempts to incite similar feelings in others. In other words, “LibraryLady sucks” is not what I refer to. “Librarians are radical militant terrorists who should be lined up against the wall and shot until none are left” is.

Many people here have commented upon the fact that hate speech is not against the Membership Agreement. It is not against the United States Constitution either. And I agree with both documents entirely. Free speech is a principle I hold dear. My right to ignore speech is something I hold dear as well.

Naturally, hate speech ceases to be free speech when it incites others to commit illegal acts. “Librarians are militant radical terrorists who should be shot. We have guns. Let’s go shoot them.” Is not free speech; it is conspiracy.

All of this being said, let’s take a look at hate speech and what it is.

The very first thing I notice about hate speech is that it is tedious. Seriously, it is rare to read hate filled rhetoric that transcends the sixth grade level. It’s kind of like pornography that way, isn’t it? There only so many ways to say, “They did it” before it just becomes repetitive and silly. The vocabulary in hate speech is usually pretty limited and the literary devices are few and far between. There is hate speech that transcends this, just as there is well written porn, but it’s unusual and usually doesn’t fulfill its purpose. The target audiences are usually not those who have an education or an appreciation of such things. They are simply looking for someone to hate.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard or read any hate speech that explores new ground of any kind. Anti-Semites point to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or the blood libel. Racists talk about the curse of Ham or the studies by Lombroso, or variations thereof. This too makes sense. New ideas are hard to think about. The intended audience doesn’t really want to put in the effort.

What hate speech occasionally does well is to arouse emotion. Fear is the target of the hated and anger the target of the haters. However, even here there are failures sometimes, evoking amusement from the intended object or a united front of both the hated peoples and their sympathizers.

But.

It is important to remember that while we might be bored, perplexed, or amused by what we hear and read, that doesn’t mean it is benign. It is not.

There are people who do believe in what the hate speech says, and specifically incited or not, will act upon their beliefs. Abortion doctors keep their addresses secret for a reason. Do not underestimate it.

Be glad if you live in a society that allows hate speech. Be grateful for the Internet and the voice it gives to the haters. Know it is out there and seeing who says these things is half the battle. It is a part of our education. It disturbs our complacency.

Therefore, also be glad that our Membership Agreement allows this. Practice using constructive tools to make your arguments against it. It’s a training ground for the real world.

I´d even go a little further in defining hate speech.

"Librarians are evil" is clearly an (inept) attempt at generating hatred against Librarians. It also isolates itself against refutation by being annoyingly vague in its non-definition of "evil"; thus is serves no purpose in discussion. I would clearly categorize this as hate speech.
If, on the other hand, someone said "librarians are evil because they are 256% more likely to throw a puppy into boiling water", this has the same intention, but it can be used for discussion, because it gives a quasi-definition of evil and provides a refutable (or confirmable) claim. We could argue if puppy-boiling is really a bad thing, we could argue if puppy-boiling alone is bad enough to make you evil, and we could argue if librarians actually do boil more puppies than other people. That is the sort of hate speech that might be worth tolerating (while holding your nose) for the sake of discussion.

However, one thing that is completely intolerable to me, and that I think should be intolerable in general, is the combination with "and something illegal should happen to them". And I don´t see any appreciable difference between "something illegal should happen to them" and "let´s do something illegal to them", either, other than a fig leaf.
 
Hate speech can be bad, but censorship is even worse.

I've also noticed that frequently people try to apply the term 'hate speech' to a wide range of diatribes that they find offensive, to try, I suppose to bring to bear some of the baggage (legal and social) that has been associated with 'hate speech'.

I'm not sure why pornography was brought into this (note: I am the owner of an original copy of Eros, vol 1, prosecuted for obscenity by Attorney General Robert Kennedy himself in 1962)

This observation
There only so many ways to say, “They did it” before it just becomes repetitive and silly.

could easily apply to thousands of mediocre novels published every year.

Whether boring or not, though, is an oversimplification. It's about what resonates with the reader/viewer. The differing responses, particularly between the genders (why many men like porn but are bored silly by romantic chick flicks, and vice versa) are no accident, they are the very natural outcome of the evolutionary pressures that molded our psychology.
 
Which is why I'm encouraging people to use their skills to make constructive replies. Name calling is not included in that. Getting creative, countering arguments, etc. is. It won't change their minds, but it will inform other people.

Sure I understand your message. Some of the stuff posted lately (unprecedented in my time here I believe) is so extreme it tests even mild, even handed people. It's sad to see these people infracted. I'm not critical of the rules or the mods in expressing this sadness.
 
Because those are the rules we have here. I'm sure at some work places handing someone their head (verbally) could get you written up if not fired.

It what place of work in the United States today would a worker be fired for calling someone a *********** ******* in response to a co-worker saying that "colored corpses should be used for pet food"?

Edited by LashL: 
To properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 re: the auto-censor.
 
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