Harpers Excerpt. The Christian Paradox.

Ours is among the most spiritually homogenous rich nations on earth.
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Grrr. This is one of my pedant's bugbears. Unless you are descended from spirits sharing similar genes, you are spiritually homogeneous, not homogenous.

Cheeers,
Rat.
 
From the article:

Three quarters of Americans believe the Bible teaches that “God helps those who help themselves.” That is, three out of four Americans believe that this uber-American idea, a notion at the core of our current individualist politics and culture, which was in fact uttered by Ben Franklin, actually appears in Holy Scripture. The thing is, not only is Franklin’s wisdom not biblical; it’s counter-biblical. Few ideas could be further from the gospel message, with its radical summons to love of neighbor. On this essential matter, most Americans—most American Christians—are simply wrong, as if 75 percent of American scientists believed that Newton proved gravity causes apples to fly up.
How is “God helps those who help themselves.” counter-biblical? I think the author missunderstands the quote. It does not mean to help oneself to the exclusion of helping others. It means that you can't lay in bed hopping for miracles. You have to make an effort to solve your problems and then god will intercede. You still have to love and help your neighbor.
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RandFan
How is “God helps those who help themselves.” counter-biblical? I think the author missunderstands the quote. It does not mean to help oneself to the exclusion of helping others. It means that you can't lay in bed hopping for miracles. You have to make an effort to solve your problems and then god will intercede. You still have to love and help your neighbor.
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Compare “God helps those who help themselves.” to the story of Job. All good things come from having faith in and worshiping god, not from hard work. By helping yourself you are removing the need for god to intervene.

Ossai
 
Ossai said:
RandFan

Compare “God helps those who help themselves.” to the story of Job. All good things come from having faith in and worshiping god, not from hard work. By helping yourself you are removing the need for god to intervene.
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I don't agree at all. And I'm not certain what Job has to do with it? Why should a Christian go to work? Isn't that helping yourself? Should a Christian fix meals? Wash the car? The point, according to Chrsitan philosophy, is that God helps after all that we can do first.
 
RandFan said:
I don't agree at all. And I'm not certain what Job has to do with it? Why should a Christian go to work? Isn't that helping yourself? Should a Christian fix meals? Wash the car? The point, according to Chrsitan philosophy, is that God helps after all that we can do first.
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Not according to Matthew, it isn't...

6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin;
6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
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Then again, there's Paul, in 1 Timothy...

5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
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Thanks to the Skeptics Annotated Bible for pointing me to the 1 Timothy reference.
 
RandFan said:
I don't agree at all. And I'm not certain what Job has to do with it? Why should a Christian go to work? Isn't that helping yourself? Should a Christian fix meals? Wash the car? The point, according to Chrsitan philosophy, is that God helps after all that we can do first.
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Well, what about Jesus' parables of the raven's that don't sow or reap, or the lilies in the field that don't labour or spin or whatnot? Isn't the moral there that god will provide for our needs if only we'd have faith? that working for yourself and planning ahead is counterproductive since real wealth is not of this world? The only planning Xians are supposed to do is prepare their souls for the Second Coming, which is coming up soon. Really. Any day now.

Aaaand I see Marquis de Carabas has beat me to it
 
I finally got around to reading the Harper's essay.

The author, Bill McKibbens, is criticizing what he calls a "comfort the comfortable, personal-empowerment faith", and that is the sense of "God helps those who help themselves" to which he refers. He asserts that this "veil the actual, and remarkable, message of the Gospels."

In the author's view, this seems primarily to be a fault to which evangelical Protestants are susceptible; although he argues that even "the Catholic Church, for most of its American history a sturdy exponent of a 'love your neighbor' theology, has been weakened, too[.]"

I do take issue with one point the author makes. He argues that one symptom of the spread of "un-Christian" interpretations of Christian doctrine is a low amount of charitable giving by Americans. He starts out by examining government foreign aid, but then says that private donations to charitable causes don't increase the figures very much. I suspect that his figures are way off. Coincidentally, Prof. Arthur Brooks (whose research (see here and here) has persuasively shown that religious affiliation is the single greatest predictive factor of philanthropic behavior) was on public radio just this afternoon. I believe he mentioned that annual U.S. private charitable giving was in the $200+ billion range, whereas annual foreign aid appropriations are in the $15-20 billion range. He also noted that per capita U.S. private charitable donations are 3 times those of the British, 6 times those of the French, and 10 times those of the Italians (again, I'm going from memory here).

So I think by that measure, which actually is linked to religiosity, Americans aren't so stingy after all.

All in all, it's a decent essay, though.
 
ceo_esq said:
I do take issue with one point the author makes. He argues that one symptom of the spread of "un-Christian" interpretations of Christian doctrine is a low amount of charitable giving by Americans. He starts out by examining government foreign aid, but then says that private donations to charitable causes don't increase the figures very much. I suspect that his figures are way off. Coincidentally, Prof. Arthur Brooks (whose research (see here and here) has persuasively shown that religious affiliation is the single greatest predictive factor of philanthropic behavior) was on public radio just this afternoon. I believe he mentioned that annual U.S. private charitable giving was in the $200+ billion range, whereas annual foreign aid appropriations are in the $15-20 billion range.
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Well, McKibbens was talking specifically about "development assistance to poor countries." Couldn't it be that the discrepancy between the numbers are due to the lion's share of the private charitable givings are destined for domestic charities?
 
Leif Roar said:
Well, McKibbens was talking specifically about "development assistance to poor countries." Couldn't it be that the discrepancy between the numbers are due to the lion's share of the private charitable givings are destined for domestic charities?
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Yes, I think that's possible, now that you mention it. But in the next breath he refers to a number of obviously domestic "measures of caring" - infant mortality, access to preschool, and the like - which makes it even less clear whether he was previously distinguishing between domestic and foreign charitable relief work, or why such a distinction would be warranted in the first place.
 
The real mystery is the porn paradox.

If this is such a devout chrisitan nation then who keeps buying all the porn? Are they just producing it and then dumping it into landfills to make jesus cry?

I see porn shops all over the place but I am just about the only person I know who has ever watched an adult movie. Its quite strange I cant figure it out EVERYBODY wants to ban pron and strippers so why is it such a hot business?

When I go to strip clubs they are never empty but I dont know many people who have ever been to one. I guess all those guys stuffing dollars are just demons in disguise.
 
ceo_esq said:
... or why such a distinction would be warranted in the first place.
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This is guesswork, but I suspect that foreign aid is simply the easiest indicator to measure, as what constitutes domestic charity might vary greatly between nations, due to differences in law, accounting practices and different social structures.
 
Leif Roar said:
Well, McKibbens was talking specifically about "development assistance to poor countries."
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Americans donate fat cash to development assistance in poor countries. I have 3 channels on my TV that devote the entire day to collecting money for (insert poor country here). The problem is that the money actually goes towards buying Benny Hinn another rolls royce.
 
RandFan said:
How is “God helps those who help themselves.” counter-biblical? I think the author missunderstands the quote. It does not mean to help oneself to the exclusion of helping others. It means that you can't lay in bed hopping for miracles. You have to make an effort to solve your problems and then god will intercede. You still have to love and help your neighbor.
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I agree. Matthew 25:14-18 - the parable of the talents. The servant who hid the money was punished; the servant who invested the money was rewarded.
 
Rat said:
Grrr. This is one of my pedant's bugbears. Unless you are descended from spirits sharing similar genes, you are spiritually homogeneous, not homogenous.

Cheeers,
Rat.
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Really?

All the dictionary sites I've found use them interchangably.

If you could find a source for that, however, I would love to be a pedant with you.
 
Ladewig said:
I agree. Matthew 25:14-18 - the parable of the talents. The servant who hid the money was punished; the servant who invested the money was rewarded.
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But in this case clearly the money is metaphorical. Jesus does not like real investment and wealth. After all, to get into heaven you have to get rid of all your material possessions. I think the story is more about the guys that devoted their efforts towards the betterment of their lord being rewarded, and the one that forget about and lived his own life being rejected.

The parable previous to that one has 5 virgins missing out on partying with a dude that is getting it on with the 5 that stocked up on lamp oil. I hope you see that the literal interpretation is not going to work here.
 
Hey, it's like that movie version of Dragnet--vice and guilt are big sellers and feed off of each other. The only thing as popular as sin is pointing out the sins of others while smugly hiding our own.
 
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