Hamas rejects attacks on civilians in buses

[richardm]

The Palestinian Islamist resistance group Hamas condemned the London bombings.

"Targeting civilians in their transport means and lives is denounced and rejected," Moussa Abu Marzouk, deputy chief of the group's political bureau, said.

Eh? Does this mean that they're not going to sanction any more bombs on buses in Israel? Or are Israelis not civilians? Or does the political bureau pretend to have nothing to do with the violence, a la Sinn Fein?

From here

 

[Cleon]

Eh? Does this mean that they're not going to sanction any more bombs on buses in Israel? Or are Israelis not civilians? Or does the political bureau pretend to have nothing to do with the violence, a la Sinn Fein?

From here

One of the rationales Hamas has used to attack Israeli buses is that, since Israel has a universal draft and reserves, everyone is a soldier or potential combatant. Since Britain lacks said universal draft, British civilians are just civilians.

Hey, I didn't say it made sense, but it's one of the rationales.

 

[Manny]

Unfortunately, Cleon got it in one. http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=16952

 

[Psi Baba]

Arab world condemns London blasts

 

[zenith-nadir]

One of the rationales Hamas has used to attack Israeli buses is that, since Israel has a universal draft and reserves, everyone is a soldier or potential combatant. Since Britain lacks said universal draft, British civilians are just civilians.

Hey, I didn't say it made sense, but it's one of the rationales.

Any jew, whether they be newborn, infant, child, adolescent or adult is a "potential combatant" to Hamas.

• Aug 31, 2004 - Hamas suicide bombers blows up two Beersheba city buses - 16 people were murdered and 100 wounded.
• 29 January 2004 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #19 bus in Jerusalem - 11 people were murdered and 44 were wounded.
• 19 August 2003 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #2 bus in Jerusalem - 23 people were murdered and over 130 were wounded.
• 11 June 2003 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #14A bus in Jerusalem - 11 people were murdered and over 100 were wounded.
• 18 May 2003 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #6 bus in Jerusalem - 7 people were murdered and 20 wounded.
• 5 March 2003 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #37 bus in Haifa - 17 people were murdered and 53 were wounded.
• 21 November 2002 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #20 bus in Jerusalem - 11 people were murdered and 50 were wounded.
• 4 August 2002 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #361 bus at Meron junction - 9 people were murdered and 50 were wounded.
• 18 June 2002 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #32A bus in Jerusalem - 19 people were murdered and 74 were wounded.
• 2 December 2001 - Hamas suicide bomber blows up #16 bus in Haifa - 15 people were murdered and 40 were wounded.

Israel protests European Union contacts with Hamas - 6/16/2005

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel on Thursday protested rising European contacts with Hamas, urging the EU to keep the group on its list of terrorist organizations and warning that talking to the Islamic militants undermines Palestinian moderates.

"Every 10 days to two weeks we have at least one meeting with a European diplomat," said Mohammed Ghazal, a senior Hamas representative in the West Bank.

Ghazal said most of the contacts in the West Bank and Gaza were with lower level EU diplomats, but that higher level contacts between the EU and Hamas were taking place abroad. He did not elaborate.

In Brussels, EU official Elena Peresso said the EU "was not aware of any contacts" and has reached no collective decision on whether to change its policy toward Hamas.

Added Bob Hiensch, Holland's ambassador to Israel: "It's very clear that we will not have a political dialogue with Hamas as long as they do not denounce all acts of violence and explicitly recognize Israel's right to exist."

He did not rule out, however, that member states may be meeting on their own with Hamas but said "it's not a European decision." Hiensch said the EU was still deciding what to do about contacts with Hamas-backed mayors in towns where Europeans have current aid projects.

Some, especially in the EU, have argued that talking to Hamas could help curb its extremist tendencies. Others say the contact will only prop up violent hard-liners.

What a world....

 

[Cleon]

Any jew, whether they be newborn, infant, child, adolescent or adult is a "potential combatant" to Hamas.

Not Jew, Israeli. There's a difference.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Not Jew, Israeli. There's a difference.

You are 100% wrong and I shall not get into a JREF pissing contest over your semantic interpretations. Therefore i shall post direct quotes from the Covenant of Hamas so there is ABSOLUTELY no confusion.

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Article Fifteen:

The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

They said Jews Cleon not Israelis.

 

[Cleon]

You are 100% wrong and I shall not get into a JREF pissing contest over your semantic interpretations.

Whatever you say, ZN. It's good to know you have such an open mind, willing to learn.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Whatever you say, ZN. It's good to know you have such an open mind, willing to learn.

You refuse to admit that you are misrepresenting the facts therefore I let the Hamas Covenant speak for Hamas and reject your intepretations.

Have a nice day.

 

[Cleon]

You refuse to admit that you are misrepresenting the facts therefore I let the Hamas Covenant speak for Hamas and reject your intepretations.

Whatever you say, ZN.

 

[hgc]

Whatever you say, ZN.

Twice in a row, you've ducked. I'm willing to learn. Educate me.

 

[Cleon]

Twice in a row, you've ducked. I'm willing to learn. Educate me.

"I shall not get into a JREF pissing contest over your semantic interpretations" - That's not me ducking, that's ZN deciding he won't listen to anything I have to say. What, then, is the point?

As far as Hamas goes, ZN highlighted the relevant bit himself: "the Jews' usurpation of Palestine." Who exactly are the "Jews usurping Palestine?" The Jewish community in Clearfield, Pennsylvania? No...They're talking about Israelis. It's called "context." Every time in Hamas' charter they refer to "Jews," it's rather obvious they mean "Israelis."

Add that to the fact that referring to Israelis as "the Jews" in the Occupied Territories is pretty common. Not out of maliciousness, really, it's just that for the vast majority of these people their only contact with Jews has been Israel (particularly the IDF).

If that's not enough, check out Hamas' wikipedia entry. Notice how many times Hamas has specifically Jews outside of Israel.

Now, then, having said my piece, I will leave this thread. You and ZN may feel free to decide that I'm:

<ul>
[*]Ducking
[*]Quitting
[*]Scared
[*]Unable/unwilling to justify what I've said
[/list]

I honestly don't care.

 

[Mycroft]

Cleon,

Hamas doesn't make the same distinction you make on their behalf. Further, it has to be just about the most brutal and racist organization on Earth. Why would you make appologies for it?

 

[Darat]

Eh? Does this mean that they're not going to sanction any more bombs on buses in Israel? Or are Israelis not civilians? Or does the political bureau pretend to have nothing to do with the violence, a la Sinn Fein?

From here

It’s the worse kind of hypocrisy I can imagine. It can be nothing but part of an insidious PR campaign.

I believe that what they are trying to do is portray to the “western world” that they are something other then ruthless indiscriminate murderers of innocents by saying the bombings in London are somehow different to the attacks they perpetrate against innocent people.

They aren’t.

Hamas are exactly like the people behind the terrorist attacks in London yesterday - despicable, vile murderers.

I was going to write more but I genuinely feel too disgusted to even put down any further thoughts at the moment.

 

[renata]

It is not merely Israelis that die in these kinds of attacks. Many attacks involve, and even seem to target visitors. I recall that being justified as well- visitors give legitimacy and financial support to the Israelis. Similarly, I recall (although I do not have sources at this time) that Americans on 9/11 were fair game as they pay taxes and support an administration that supports Israel. Given that logic, I doubt there is a single person on the planet that is a "civilian". Lets see...Arab states that supply oil trade with US that supports Israel. Osama Bin Laden gives justification for war on terrorism that helps Israel, and so forth.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Why would you make appologies for it?

Because for some bizzare reason it seems to be easier for Cleon to play semantic games with Hamas's definition of the word "jew" than for him to admit he is mistaken in this instance.

 

[Art Vandelay]

According to manny's link:

That's why Israelis are still pursuing the Germans who took part in the Holocaust, though some of these people are in their 80s. They are still considered soldiers.

My understanding that Isreal considers them criminals, not soldiers. An important distinction.

One of the rationales Hamas has used to attack Israeli buses is that, since Israel has a universal draft and reserves, everyone is a soldier or potential combatant. Since Britain lacks said universal draft, British civilians are just civilians.

Well, then. I guess Israel has never killed any civilians, either.

Not Jew, Israeli. There's a difference.

Every time in Hamas' charter they refer to "Jews," it's rather obvious they mean "Israelis."

So... Hamas distinguishes between Jews and Israelis... but substitutes the word "Jew" for "Israeli" just for fun?

If every Jew is a potential Israeli, and every Israeli is a potential soldier, is not every Jew a potential soldier?

I honestly don't care.

Yes, you do.

 

[peptoabysmal]

Eh? Does this mean that they're not going to sanction any more bombs on buses in Israel? Or are Israelis not civilians? Or does the political bureau pretend to have nothing to do with the violence, a la Sinn Fein?

From here

I think you missed the part where they place the blame squarely on:

"If there is some party that should be held accountable for killing the innocent and spreading terror and chaos among the British people, it should be the government of Tony Blair," al-Tamimi told Aljazeera.