Halloween is a Christian holiday

Steven Howard

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Elsethread, I made a remark about Halloween being a Christian holiday, to which ponderingturtle replied:

ponderingturtle said:
Well halloween was never entirely christian, no matter how much they tried to co-opt it.
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It's my understanding (which is entirely second-hand, I hasten to add) that, despite common belief, Halloween has nothing to do with the Celtic Samhain (or Samain), other than occurring around the same time of the year.

Halloween, of course, comes from "All Hallows Eve", otherwise know as the Vigil of All Saints Day. All Saints Day was first celebrated in the 9th Century, literally hundreds of years after the last time anybody had celebrated Samhain. So there was no reason for Christianity to co-opt the older pagan holiday, and nothing to co-opt in the first place.

Further, the two celebrations have nothing in common. All Saints Day came about because of the increasing importance of saints and the veneration of their relics in the medieval church. All Souls Day was the mass for the dead souls in Purgatory, and it wasn't celebrated until the 11th Century, and it wasn't moved to the day after All Saints Day until sometime later. And anyway, the Irish church originally celebrated All Saints Day in the spring, meaning that their All Hallows Eve was nowhere near the previous date of Samhain.

Meanwhile, there's no reason to believe that Samhain was anything other than a celebration of the new year. The associated of Samhain with the dead is a modern invention, based on the supposed connection to Halloween.

The modern practice of dressing up in costumes and going door-to-door begging for candy apparently dates to Victorian times, and was originally associated with many different holidays, not just Halloween.
 
Steven Howard said:
The modern practice of dressing up in costumes and going door-to-door begging for candy apparently dates to Victorian times, and was originally associated with many different holidays, not just Halloween.
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Most noteably christmass.

As for the title of thread, christians coopted so many celebrations from other areas, why should one more be supprising?
 
drkitten said:
I doubt you can find the Feast of the Immaculate Conception in the Bible either, but that doesn't make it other than a Christian holiday.
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I would consider that a "so-called Christian holiday"

Just because someone claims something is Christian doesn't automatically make it so.
 
There's some fascinating stuff on the origins and myths of Halloween/Samhain here. Most of it is taken from Ronald Hutton, who has researched the origins of "pagan" festivals.
Since the origins of Halloween can be adequately explained with reference to Catholic All Souls Day and its Protestant prohibition, one might well ask why so many popular books, articles and web sites claim ancient pagan roots for the modern holiday. The simple answer is that in the popular imagination Druids are a lot more interesting than Catholics! Halloween conjures up images of the spooky and mysterious, so people naturally like to imagine that its origins lie in primitive occult rituals. People also tend to like simple explanations for things, whereas the historical explanations for any modern folk custom are likely to involve a lot of complex factors. The idea that ancient Celts wore disguises at Samhain to scare away evil spirits is both intriguing and simple. The real origins of Halloween fancy-dress can't be summed up in a sentence. They can only be explained with reference to other European guising customs, many of which have rather mundane connections with seasonal money-making schemes.

Most of the popular myths about the origins of Halloween can be traced back to two nineteenth century British authors: Sir John Rhys and Sir James Frazer, who speculated about connections between Halloween and pagan Celtic rituals, but provided no valid evidence to back up their claims. At the time they were writing, modern folk customs were typically seen as remnants of prehistoric religious rituals which survived among the common, uneducated country folk long after their original purpose had died out. This 'survivals theory' is widely rejected by contemporary historians, anthropologists and folklorists, who have a less romantic outlook on the past than their Victorian predecessors.
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Fizzer said:
drkitten said:
I doubt you can find the Feast of the Immaculate Conception in the Bible either, but that doesn't make it other than a Christian holiday.
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I would consider that a "so-called Christian holiday"

Just because someone claims something is Christian doesn't automatically make it so.
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If you have some reasoned basis for thinking that the Feast of the Immaculate Conception might possibly not be a Christian holiday (though it's obviously not a universal one), I for one would be curious to know it.
 
Fizzer said:
I would consider that a "so-called Christian holiday"

Just because someone claims something is Christian doesn't automatically make it so.
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Say what? It's the freaking 25th of March celebration of the rape of Mary (No one asked for her consent.) You know, the one that's precisely nine months before the Feast of the Nativity. It's a holiday celebrated by millions of Christians as an established part of Catholic dogma going back into the 5th Century.
 
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Fizzer said:
I would consider that a "so-called Christian holiday"
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Yes, but you'd be wrong by any sensible meanings of the words above.

Christianity didn't suddenly stop developing with the compilation of the Bible; and two thousand years is more than enough time for new traditions and holidays to develop. As a simple example, many, perhaps most, saints have Feast days associated with them, Feast days that obviously didn't exist before the life and canonization of the saint in question. Saint Patrick, for example, was born in the fifth century -- which is well after the compilation of the Bible.

The Feast of the Immaculate Conception is a direct outgrowth of the Catholic Tradition regarding Anne, the mother of Mary (btw, it does not refer to Jesus' conception, but to Mary's -- as someone born free of original sin, she was therefore suitable for bearing the Son of God). But the holiday itself was established by Papal decree in 1854, and we've got documentary proof of the event.

Just because someone claims something is Christian doesn't automatically make it so.
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No. But it takes real balls -- or real ignorance -- to claim that something isn't Christian when we've got direct historic proof within the last two centuries tying something to Christianity. Next you'll tell me that Martin Luther King, Jr. day is also an ancient pagan celebration?
 
Who gets to define what is Christian and what is not?

Does a group whose teachings and practices stray from what Christ taught have any authority to declare themselves Christian, and then by default everything that they dream up throughout the course of history automatically become considered Christian as well? (And I'm not strictly targeting Catholicism alone).

The Immaculate Conception (the sinless birth of Mary) is not Biblically based, so why should a feast commemorating it be considered something truly Christian?

Yes, I know, I'm just arguing semantics and the "what church is truly Christian" debate has gone on for centuries. However, the Bible does state that after the death of the apostles there would be a great apostacy and as we see the Christian faith has fractured into a gazillion pieces. So just because one of them comes up with a feast or a holiday doesn't mean that that is truly Christian from God's point of view.
 
drkitten said:
The Feast of the Immaculate Conception is a direct outgrowth of the Catholic Tradition regarding Anne, the mother of Mary (btw, it does not refer to Jesus' conception, but to Mary's -- as someone born free of original sin, she was therefore suitable for bearing the Son of God). But the holiday itself was established by Papal decree in 1854, and we've got documentary proof of the event.
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Luke 1: 26-38 That's the Annunciation. The Catholic Encyclopedia agrees that it clear that the events of Luke 1 26-38 are what are being celebrated at the Feast of the Annunciation.

The year and day of the Annunciation cannot be determined as long as new material does not throw more light on the subject. The present date of the feast (25 March) depends upon the date of the older feast of Christmas.

The Annunciation is the beginning of Jesus in His human nature.
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If there's additional ritual crap surrounding Mary that's celebrated on the biggest holiday involving her, I wouldn't be at all surprised, however.

ETA: In case you don't actually read the links provided, as is your habit.
The church of Milan, up to our times, assigns the office of this feast to the last Sunday in Advent. On the 25th of March a Mass is sung in honour of the Annunciation. (Ordo Ambrosianus, 1906; Magistretti, Beroldus, 136.) The schismatic Armenians now celebrate this feast on the 7th of April. Since Epiphany for them is the feast of the birth of Christ, the Armenian Church formerly assigned the Annunciation to 5 January, the vigil of Epiphany. This feast was always a holy day of obligation in the Universal Church. As such it was abrogated first for France and the French dependencies, 9 April, 1802; and for the United States, by the Third Council of Baltimore, in 1884. By a decree of the S.R.C., 23 April, 1895, the rank of the feast was raised from a double of the second class to a double of the first class. If this feast falls within Holy Week or Easter Week, its office is transferred to the Monday after the octave of Easter. In some German churches it was the custom to keep its office the Saturday before Palm Sunday if the 25th of March fell in Holy Week. The Greek Church, when the 25th of March occurs on one of the three last days in Holy Week, transfers the Annunciation to Easter Monday; on all other days, even on Easter Sunday, its office is kept together with the office of the day. Although no octaves are permitted in Lent, the Dioceses of Loreto and of the Province of Venice, the Carmelites, Dominicans, Servites, and Redemptorists, celebrate this feast with an octave.
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ImaginalDisc said:
Luke 1: 26-38 That's the Annunciation. The Catholic Encyclopedia agrees that it clear that the events of Luke 1 26-38 are what are being celebrated at the Feast of the Annunciation.



If there's additional ritual crap surrounding Mary that's celebrated on the biggest holiday involving her, I wouldn't be at all surprised, however.

ETA: In case you don't actually read the links provided, as is your habit.
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How did we go from talking about the Immaculate Conception to the Annunciation, two entirely different concepts?
 
IF I'm reading Fizzer correctly, he is distinguishing between the philosophies and sayings of Jesus, and the religious followers of Jesus (ie Christians).

Trouble is: what word do we use for the discussion of Jesus' philosophy? What do we call the followers of message, but not of his Messiah-hood?

Jesuits?

Ah, already taken.

I will mention that I've always been puzzled by Christians saying 'this or that is wrong' because of what Paul said. I am always tempted to ask: "are you a Paulian? I thought you were a Christian."
 
ImaginalDisc said:
Luke 1: 26-38 That's the Annunciation. The Catholic Encyclopedia agrees that it clear that the events of Luke 1 26-38 are what are being celebrated at the Feast of the Annunciation.
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Yeah. That's my point. The Annunciation is celebrated on the 25th of March.

The Feast of the Immaculate Conception is celebrated on the 8th of December.

They're two different celebrations. Dumb (rule 8).
 
Fizzer said:
Who gets to define what is Christian and what is not?
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Not you.

Does a group whose teachings and practices stray from what Christ taught have any authority to declare themselves Christian,
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Yes, almost by definition, since we are all fallen and any group composed of fallen beings will inevitably stray from what Christ taught.

and then by default everything that they dream up throughout the course of history automatically become considered Christian as well?
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Yes.

The Immaculate Conception (the sinless birth of Mary) is not Biblically based, so why should a feast commemorating it be considered something truly Christian?
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Because the people doing the considering are not playing stupid "no true Scotsman" semantic games.
 
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