Government Role in Society

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To what extent can the government control its population and still be benevolent in its governing?

Can a government legislate morality? Can it really direct the minds of its citizens without coersion? Would the results of coersion be genuine or feigned?
 
Mmm...tough question

In a sense, it already does. It outlaws killing or injuring another person or, sometimes, animal. I would suggest that doing so is part of being a benevolent government.
 
Upchurch...It is illegal to murder true but that law is governing behaviour. It does not legislate morality. There may be a moral conviction in the governing member as to why he or she wants murder to be illegal but the law only enforces behaviour.

In the time of Eric the Red, the laws of the land stated that if someone in your family were killed by someone, your family was legally able to put the murderer to death but only for a period of two years (I think it was two years). After that if you killed the killer you would be in violation of the law. That is why Eric took off to places more safe than Scandinavia, where the family of one of his victims hunted him.

Could anything the government do in a democratic society be deemed to create morality or at least legislate it? Seems to me that every attempt so far has failed but some would say the failure is due to the softness of the government and that with strict enough measures, that morality could be enforced.
 
Could you be more specific as to what you mean by "morality"? A government cannot control what is 'right' or 'wrong' in that what is right and what is wrong is independent of any government's actions, but it can use its power to alter behavior.

So I'm not exactly sure what you're asking there.
 
jimmygun said:
Upchurch...It is illegal to murder true but that law is governing behaviour. It does not legislate morality. There may be a moral conviction in the governing member as to why he or she wants murder to be illegal but the law only enforces behaviour.
Well, then, from a pragmatic point of view, what is the difference in legislating behaviour and legislating morality? What would be an example of legislating morality?
 
This book is about a single idea—consenting adults should not be put in jail unless they physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.
-Peter McWilliams on the absudrity of consenual crimes in a free society.

The entire book can be found online here.

http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/aint/

I believe a government can regulate morality, but I don't think it's possible to do so in a free society.

A brutal dictatorship, or clean Facist state, yes. But it has always been my understanding that these types of governments are unweildiny in the long term, and unlikely to remain stable.
 
Well, then, from a pragmatic point of view, what is the difference in legislating behaviour and legislating morality? What would be an example of legislating morality?

Any law that punishs acts that to not do harm to another. I view government as a 'social contract' a term I've carried all the way from grade school to explain Law.

The idea is simple. Humans need to function as a group in order to maintain our dominance of the planet. In order to exist as a group, we must agree to not hurt one another.

In order to ensure we all keep to this agreement, mediators are selected from time to time to remedy faults, and to punish wrongdoers.

'Harm" however becomes a complex word when property, honor, and pride come into play. In the case of property, simple reembursement normaly should suffice. But how do you restore someones honor? Pride once brusied can turn to bitterness, and hatred. Some behaviors, while they do no phsyical harm to anyone, so greatly disturb others that they feel compeled to act against them.

What could any mediator do to remedy such problems? Punishment is the primary method of coersion avalible to outside forces. Punishment harms the individual of group that commits the offending behavior directly, be it loss of freedoms, physical harm, or financal loss. But by what right do you harm someone who has done no harm? In my simple opionin, by no right, doing someone harm is always wrong. It sometimes becomes nessasary to do wrong in order to prevent further wrongdoing, or to right a previous wrong, but if the person has done no harm, no harm should be intentionaly done to them.
 
A complication to consider is that sometimes people need the group to do their individual best. Just like alcoholics need a life-line to call in emergencies, we all fail to function at one time or another, and require someone else to fill in the gap. Or like scientists need someone else to replicate their expierements.

We are social animals: we need each other. Drawing the line between oppression and neglect is made harder by the fact that the line is not only different for different people, it changes over time for the same person.

Government can't legislate morality, but neither can it ignore it. The 5% that can't fit in must be made allowances, but not at the expense of the 95%.

This is the great question of our age: how does society maximize freedom for the many, while protecting us from the few? Democracy is the best form of government this planet has ever seen, but it's not perfect.
 
I am talking about 'moral' as is defined by the church. There are obvious socially moral codes and to survive as a society we enact laws to (in its purest sense) remove those that will not comply with the rules. Any harm done physically is our first concern.

However, from time to time governments have tried to enforce laws which protect people from spiritual harm. For example, Blue Laws which prohibited work, sports and entertainment on the sabbath. In passing such laws is the government actually enforcing spiritual morallity?

I think not, they are only enforcing conformity. The extent of that enforced conformity relies on the government's mandate. If it is totalitarian it can enforce total conformity as the Taliban did. If it is a democratic government it must protect the individual from any laws that might attempt to coerce the person into conformity with whatever happens to be the spiritual flavour of the month.

In my short span on earth I have seen my own society go from very restrictive to very open. Laws to force conformity in the 50's were strictly adhered to. One could find oneself in a ton of trouble simply by asking why.

The government, though democratic in nature, could and did make end runs around the rights of the individual. End runs that were not unlike that of the Soviet Union that at one time would put dissenters into a phychiatric hospital to shut them up and shut them away.

I see it as paramount that the rights of the individual must be regarded as a priority in government. Laws should be passed to curtail harmful behaviour but also to protect those that would simply wish to be different.

In another thread, which gave rise to this one, I explained that the government could mandate that I assist someone in trouble, get them to a hospital, provide first aid, etc, but it could not force me to donate a kidney. It could not force me to care about that person if I so choose. Such is the bones of my question. Some have suggested that the government can in some way force me to care. I disagree but I would like to hear from others their points of view.
 
Jimmy wrote:
It could not force me to care about that person if I so choose. Such is the bones of my question. Some have suggested that the government can in some way force me to care. I disagree but I would like to hear from others their points of view.

As I said before, the State can force you to care. This is not the same as to say, the State can force anyone to love, hate, like, dislike or the such.

Please don't confuse a internal mental process with care.

Suppose a person does not care whether his automovile consumes 1 gallon for every 15 miles or less. The State can force that person to care about that. Simply a law can be enacted that all vehicles that consume 15 miles or less per gallon must pay a special tax.

When ever a law is enacted, you must be careful to note whether you must be careful

If you want to start a business you must be careful to obey all zoning laws and must be careful to have al pertinent permits.

The State is the single most important entity that can force you to care
 
Maybe we need to agree with each other about the word care. When I speak of not caring if PR lives or dies, no amount of law, fines, incarceration or threats will make me change my mind. I might be forced to behave like I care, I might even be forced to say I care, but coerced behaviour is not sincere and honest. I admit I could be taught to care but ultimately that is still my decision.

Every time any government has tried to legislate morality it fails, or it begins killing the dissenters. Name me one form of government that is able to have its entire population under one set of moral guidelines. It is an impossible task in a free society and it eventually fails in totalitarian countries.

Take any moral issue. Lets for the sake of argument say pornography. It is contentious in our society. The anti pornography people claim it is immoral and laws should ban it. The other side see it as a pleasant diversion and wish to have access to it. Can the government make the second group change their minds simply by banning it? Nope. Aint gonna happen.
 
Jimmy:

Your use of the word care, seems to me, is synonymous with the word like. In this sense, yes the absolutely no one can force you to like PR or anything for that matter.

But please consider that that definition of the word care is meaningless for us to discuss. We wouldn't want to spend time arguing whether anyone can force to like or not like stuff.


Now, if by care we mean to be concerned or interested then, it is obvious that the State can make us be concerned or interested (to pay attention to).

Jimmy wrote:
Every time any government has tried to legislate morality it fails, or it begins killing the dissenters.

There seems to be a some confusion here about this point. On a previous thread I mentioned that the State uses morality and justice as the guides to create laws.

This is not the same as to say that the State legislates morality. The State does not legislate anything but conduct. This is by definition.

Lets for the sake of argument say pornography. It is contentious in our society. The anti pornography people claim it is immoral and laws should ban it. The other side see it as a pleasant diversion and wish to have access to it. Can the government make the second group change their minds simply by banning it? Nope. Aint gonna happen.

As you can see, with your definition of care, you mean to say that the pro pornography please will like it whether legislation against it exists or not.

This is obviously true.

Now, the pro pornography must have much care in what they watch. If it is illegal, they can expect someone knocking at their door.
 
Leave aside child and nonconsentual pornography.

The grey area is consentual pornography. Are you comfortable that if someone watches it in their home and it is illegal, that they should expect a visit from big brother?

Has making it illegal done anything to curb pornography? Has it made our society any more moral? Passing laws and enforcing them to what ever degree you think the government should go doesn't increase morality, it only hides that which offends someone's god.

It is my belief that if something is illegal because it offends god then that is a bad law. It is state santioned coersion to conform to the religious beliefs of others.

Show me a society that has tried to legislate religious morality and has benefitted from that legislation. It is my contention that greater societies will emerge from individual freedoms than from coersion.

The whole point of this thread is to bring to the surface, the failings of government that knuckle under to religious pressure to try and force their morality down others throats.
 
Jimmy wrote:
Are you comfortable that if someone watches it in their home and it is illegal, that they should expect a visit from big brother?

It really doesn't matter if I'm comfortable or not, I believe.

Has making it illegal done anything to curb pornography? Has it made our society any more moral? Passing laws and enforcing them to what ever degree you think the government should go doesn't increase morality, it only hides that which offends someone's god.

I think we need to clear up some things here Jimmy. When I say the State uses morality as a guide, the meaning of morality I'm using is the common good So, you must understand it to mean, the State use the criteria of the common good as a guide to create laws.

(Using my definition) It has been demonstrated that laws are the most effective tools in modern society to increase morality (the common good).

Just think of most environmental laws as examples.

I understand why you are giving much enphasis to religion as a source of law, but please keep in mind that the modern legislative process uses many many sources, mainly legal doctrine and judicial precedent.

Now, about positive law. Yes, many laws are not positive,(this means laws are not positive [not in the positive-negative connotation but in the "being able to enforce" connotation]) just objective but, that has nothing to do with the legislator's intent. Remember the intent is the common good and justice.
 
Sorry for not responding sooner.

OdderMensch said:

Any law that punishs acts that to not do harm to another.
Again, already in place. I'm thinking of the law against homosexual sodomy (sp?) that is still in effect here in Missouri and many other states. Some of those states also make heterosexual sodomy illegal.

There is a court case going on right now about this issue in Texas, I believe.

I have several gay friends and what they do in the privacy of their own homes is their business, and yet the government does, indeed, enforce its morality on them. (Although none of them pay any attention to it.)
 
Why do I have this image in my head of someone trying to herd cats when presented with the question of how government can control its populace..?
 
Christian said:
Remember the intent is the common good and justice.

Only ideally. In reality that is often not the reasoning for laws whatsoever. The government is merely a system made up of individuals, each acting to maximize their own utility; just because the goal of the system (government) is to bring about the greater good, that does not mean the intent or goal of any particular person or action is in alignment with the goal of the system.
 
Christian...It was once considered that slavery was benificial to the common good. Slaves were excluded from the community, not given the protection of the laws of the land and everything was hunky dory. The greater common good only applied to those under the protection of the law.

Government will pass laws by being pressured by groups with agendas. Organized religion has always had the agenda (which is to force others to conform) and have at certain times in history had the political power. They try to legislate their morality and force others to worship their god, their rules, their thoughts.

The other day I was watching a debate on TV. They had a moderator, a representative from the Muslim community, the Christian community and the Jewish community. The muslim was under attack, claiming his religion was one of peace. The others asked about the dictate about killing infidels. The muslim stated that infidels meant non-believers, not jews or christians. It meant those that do not believe in god. I would have thought the others would have jumped down this guys throat, but they were okay with that explanation. They were okay that a certain part of the population could be marked for death. I suppose in their minds it would be for the greater good that persons professing no beliefs be excised from society.
 
Plutarck wrote:
Only ideally. In reality that is often not the reasoning for laws whatsoever. The government is merely a system made up of individuals, each acting to maximize their own utility; just because the goal of the system (government) is to bring about the greater good, that does not mean the intent or goal of any particular person or action is in alignment with the goal of the system.

I can respect that opinion. Just keep in mind that the system as you call it, has a long history and modern law keeps getting closer to many ideals. Granted, it will never be perfect, but we have come a long way.


Jimmy wrote:
Christian...It was once considered that slavery was benificial to the common good. Slaves were excluded from the community, not given the protection of the laws of the land and everything was hunky dory. The greater common good only applied to those under the protection of the law.

You have this tendency to jump to other topics on the fly, that is interesting. Yes, slavery was for a long time the most efficient economic system available.

Maybe 200 years from now, it will be considered proposterous that people had to work to make a living.

Government will pass laws by being pressured by groups with agendas. Organized religion has always had the agenda (which is to force others to conform) and have at certain times in history had the political power. They try to legislate their morality and force others to worship their god, their rules, their thoughts.

If you are protesting the system, go ahead, I hear you.

The other day I was watching a debate on TV. They had a moderator, a representative from the Muslim community, the Christian community and the Jewish community. The muslim was under attack, claiming his religion was one of peace. The others asked about the dictate about killing infidels. The muslim stated that infidels meant non-believers, not jews or christians. It meant those that do not believe in god. I would have thought the others would have jumped down this guys throat, but they were okay with that explanation. They were okay that a certain part of the population could be marked for death. I suppose in their minds it would be for the greater good that persons professing no beliefs be excised from society.

Funny you mention this Jimmy. I understood you thought the world would be a better place without the Pat Robertson's of the world.
 
Upchurch said:
Sorry for not responding sooner.


Again, already in place. I'm thinking of the law against homosexual sodomy (sp?) that is still in effect here in Missouri and many other states. Some of those states also make heterosexual sodomy illegal.

There is a court case going on right now about this issue in Texas, I believe.

I have several gay friends and what they do in the privacy of their own homes is their business, and yet the government does, indeed, enforce its morality on them. (Although none of them pay any attention to it.)

Hey, never worry aout delaying a post, a quick mind and a sound mind aren't always in the same brain.

I'd say laws against consensual sodomy are laws that attempt to legislate morality as the action does not harm a non-consenting person. The prevalence of gay culture shows what a dismal failure laws like this are. It is my firm belief that attempts by the government to usurp powers by legislating morality fail over time, in a free society that is.

As in your example, laws are on the books concerning consensual homosexual sodomy, but the vast majority of people, both in the enforcement & private sector ignore them. In my more perfect world, laws would never be ignored! I think back to Socrates speech before he drank the hemlock when his friends tried to get him to escape. Breaking the law is a rift in the social contract that is government, but I feel the worst rift is created when laws are created that interfere unduly with the consensual activities of adults.
 

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