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Gore on Patriot Act.

Roadtoad

Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
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Funny, but I've yet to hear what the Democrats would have done. It does strike me as funny that this is criticism from the same crowd that silenced Juanita Broaderick (?) as brutally as they did, and who slammed Bill Clinton's other accusers, smearing them in the national media, in some cases, violating Privacy Act provisions. And there was less reason to do so, as we have since learned.

What's more galling is that Gore is correct in some respects: the Patriot Act (God, what a name!) has indeed proven to be an intrusion into our civil liberties. But considering what the Democrats have done to those same liberties, I'm unimpressed with his posturing.

WASHINGTON - Former Vice President Al Gore (news - web sites) accused President Bush (news - web sites) on Sunday of failing to make the country safer after the Sept. 11 attacks and using the war against terrorism as a pretext to consolidate power.

"They have taken us much farther down the road toward an intrusive, 'big brother'-style government — toward the dangers prophesied by George Orwell in his book '1984' — than anyone ever thought would be possible in the United States of America," Gore charged in a speech.

Gore, who lost the disputed 2000 presidential election to Bush, said terrorism-fighting tools granted after Sept. 11 amount to a partisan power grab that have led to the erosion of the civil liberties of all Americans.

He brought many the crowd of 3,000 to their feet when he called for a repeal of the Patriot Act, which expanded government's surveillance and detention power, allowing authorities to monitor books people read and conduct secret searches.

Gore chided the administration for what he said was its "implicit assumption" that Americans must give up traditional freedoms in order to be safe from terrorists.

"In my opinion, it makes no more sense to launch an assault on our civil liberties as the best way to get at terrorists than it did to launch an invasion of Iraq (news - web sites) as the best way to get at Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)," Gore said.

In both cases, Gore said, the administration has "recklessly put our country in grave and unnecessary danger."

He also said the administration still has "no serious strategy" for domestic security — charging that there aren't sufficient protections in place for ports, nuclear facilities, chemical plants and other key infrastructure.

His speech was sponsored by the liberal activist group Moveon.org, which earlier this year held an online presidential primary in which Howard Dean (news - web sites) finished first.

The second sponsor, the American Constitution Society, is a national organization of law students, professors, lawyers and others that says it seek to counter what it characterizes as the dominant, narrow conservative vision of American law today.

The Patriot Act was passed overwhelmingly by Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, but has been under attack by liberals and even many conservatives who say the law intrudes too much into Americans' lives in the name of fighting terror.

Democrats have been trying to build support in the Senate to rolling back portions of the law and some Republicans say it needs to be changed.

"The Patriot Act crossed the line on several key areas of civil liberties," Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill, a member of the Senhate Judiciary Committee (news - web sites) said last month.

Changes must be made to the law if it is to be renewed in 2005, agreed GOP Sen. Larry Craig of Idaho, another member of the Judiciary Committee.


---

I especially got a gut-grab out of this paragraph:

The Patriot Act was passed overwhelmingly by Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, but has been under attack by liberals and even many conservatives who say the law intrudes too much into Americans' lives in the name of fighting terror.

Shanek, where are you when we need you?

Back to you, kids.
 
Certainly fits in with this article.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/991209.asp?0cl=c1

Cheney, say those who know him, has always had a Hobbesian view of life. The world is a dangerous place; war is the natural state of mankind; enemies lurk. The national-security state must be strong, vigilant and wary. Cheney believes that America’s military and intelligence establishments were weakened by defeat in Vietnam and the wave of scandals that followed in Watergate in the ’70s and Iran-contra in the ’80s. He did not regard as progress the rise of congressional investigating committees, special prosecutors and an increasingly adversarial, aggressive press. Cheney is a strong believer in the necessity of government secrecy as well as more broadly the need to preserve and protect the power of the executive branch.
 
Roadtoad said:
Funny, but I've yet to hear what the Democrats would have done. It does strike me as funny that this is criticism from the same crowd that silenced Juanita Broaderick (?) as brutally as they did, and who slammed Bill Clinton's other accusers, smearing them in the national media, in some cases, violating Privacy Act provisions. And there was less reason to do so, as we have since learned.
Darned if I understand the above paragraph's purpose (never mind the inaccuracies contained therein) as an introduction to a thread concerning a speech by Mr. Gore.
What's more galling is that Gore is correct in some respects: the Patriot Act (God, what a name!) has indeed proven to be an intrusion into our civil liberties. But considering what the Democrats have done to those same liberties, I'm unimpressed with his posturing.
Why should VP Gore's opinion on a matter of import be galling?
 
The Patriot Act crossed the line on several key areas of civil liberties," Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill, a member of the Senhate Judiciary Committee (news - web sites) said last month.

. . . Ones which we will never actually identify, apparently.

Getting a specific criticism from the major news sources is like pulling teeth. They keep giving sound bites from various sources, but either the sources give no specifics or the paper does not pass them on.

The only provision of the Act that truly bothered me as clearly over the line (IIRC - its been a while) is the search without notice. I can understand the desire for it in terrorism cases -- they want to trace phone numbers and etc before the person knows about the search -- but the level to allow this search, if it should be allowed at all, should require a much higher standard than probable cause to issue, IMO. There needs to be evidence of not only a crime, but that the "no notice" part is essential to meet a legitimate law enforcement purpose -- probably limited to terrorist cells, period.

A few of the other provisons may cross the line, but are at least arguable.

Several portions of the Act were good ideas, even if they were added into a bill with a lousy name: "rolling" wire taps on a person rather than a specific telephone number - with a warrant - for example. Other provisions, like the computer/email provisions, actually only codified previous practice or clearly set standards that had not existed.

And, I liked the sunset provision, as well. If they were hell-bent on destroying democracy as we know it, surely it would have been easier to put the law in and leave it permanently - and force opponents to sponsor legislation to repeal it?

With two or three sections either removed or substantially modified, the rest of the bill probably should stay.
 
NoZed Avenger said:
. . . Ones which we will never actually identify, apparently.

Which has driven me bonkers since the bill was signed into law.

The vast majority of public outcry over Patriot has been so incredibly vague, if not shallow anti-administration rhetoric. Wish I had a nickel for every time I've asked someone "which section of the legislation, specifically, is unconstitutional?" -- only to be answered with either "Uhhhhm..." or total silence. I'm definitely interested to see if any of it is modified or struck down prior to applicable sunset.
 
I'm sure all us Patriots can justify this easily:

Patriot Act gets mixed review in Vegas
Its use in investigation of strip clubs questioned
By Steve Friess, Globe Correspondent, 11/8/2003

LAS VEGAS -- This scandal has everything: Top politicians indicted on multiple counts of accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes from the owner of local strip clubs in exchange for looser regulations of what strippers can do.
But what has this got to do with terrorism?

Nothing at all, everybody involved agrees. Yet FBI agents in Las Vegas used a provision of the USA Patriot Act to obtain the financial records of several suspects in the case. It is one of more than a dozen cases in which federal investigators have relied on the Patriot Act -- passed a month after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, as a response to terrorism -- for purposes unrelated to homeland security, according to The New York Times.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/08/patriot_act_gets_mixed_review_in_vegas/

Nothing to fear from our government. They are our friends.
Why we really don't need that old Bill of Rights do we?
 
subgenius said:
Nothing to fear from our government. They are our friends.
Why we really don't need that old Bill of Rights do we?

I am more than willing to discuss paring out portions of the Patriot Act -- along with about 75% of all federal legislation.

But your statement seems to be a bit hyperbolic. From the article:

A Justice Department spokesman, Mark Corallo, insisted the section was inserted at the request of then-Senate Banking Committee chairman Paul Sarbanes, Democrat of Maryland, who sought to give the FBI new tools to fight money laundering. The provision allows an FBI agent to demand financial records without a grand jury subpoena by certifying that the suspicion of money laundering is reasonable. If a judge at trial believes the certification is inadequate, the judge may throw out the evidence, Corallo said.

* * *

Kenny's [one of those investigated] lawyer, Frank Cremen, said the perplexing part of the use of the Patriot Act was that prosecutors could have subpoenaed the financial records using other laws, although not as quickly. "Quite truthfully, I don't know why they used it, but it's going to have no impact on my client," Cremen said.

Oh, my LORD! They have used this Act to get records that they could have gotten under several other laws. It is, indeed, the end of the Bill of Rights!

I am not a criminal attorney -- this part of the law may need to be jettisoned. They don't cite the provision and I rarely trust the news service to interpret the statutes correctly. But declaring an end to the Bill of Rights seems a tad extreme, especially as the Supreme Court has not had a chance to review and knock down any provisions that might be unconstitutional.

Personally, the Bill of Rights seemed to be in more danger from "campaign finance reform," where individuals and groups were being told what they could say about political elections - a direct contravention of the First Amendment's core concern: political speech. Far fewer news stories on it; far less outrage.
 
NoZed Avenger said:
Personally, the Bill of Rights seemed to be in more danger from "campaign finance reform," where individuals and groups were being told what they could say about political elections - a direct contravention of the First Amendment's core concern: political speech. Far fewer news stories on it; far less outrage.

Well spoken.
 
Interesting, to not care about a "bait and switch" piece of legislation.
Call it the "Patriot Act", who could be against that?
Say its anti-terrorist, but use it against strip clubs, and politicians.
No problem, they could have used other laws. So why didn't they?
Watch that first step, its a doozy.
Heartening to see folks so trusting. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I will sleep much better tonight knowing there are folks with such unquestioning loyalty.
 
subgenius said:
Interesting, to not care about a "bait and switch" piece of legislation.
Call it the "Patriot Act", who could be against that?
Say its anti-terrorist, but use it against strip clubs, and politicians.
No problem, they could have used other laws. So why didn't they?
Watch that first step, its a doozy.
Heartening to see folks so trusting. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I will sleep much better tonight knowing there are folks with such unquestioning loyalty.


Wow. Read just a -wee- bit more into that response than warranted?


N/A
 
subgenius said:
Interesting, to not care about a "bait and switch" piece of legislation.
Call it the "Patriot Act", who could be against that?
Say its anti-terrorist, but use it against strip clubs, and politicians.
No problem, they could have used other laws. So why didn't they?
Watch that first step, its a doozy.
Heartening to see folks so trusting. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I will sleep much better tonight knowing there are folks with such unquestioning loyalty.

I just logged off and thought about this response for a few minutes, and the more I think about it, the more puzzled I become.

My first message listed the biggest problem I had with this legislation: the "no notice" search provision. I think that it is a bad idea and, at the very least, extraordinary protections need to be put into place in order to protect anyone subject to this. In fact, I think the whole thing should be jettisoned. I have problems with a few other items, though I feel they can probably be "fixed" with some over-hauling.

This has now been labeled as "trusting," "unquestioned loyalty." Also, I've been told that I don't care about how the legislation was enacted, though I must have missed that in the original post.

Well, its a nice way to stop the discussion - as we've established that you have already dismissed anything I might say, assuming that it was read in the first place. But its a lousy way to win a convert or make a point, IMO.

Your first (and to date in this thread, only) support for showing that this legislation is the end of the Bill of Rights was this provision allowing law enforcement to obtain records that were obtainable under other provisions. I still don't see the apocalypse coming from that, if its the most serious criticism of the Act that is being offered.

To my mind, my criticism of the Act was more substantial and the concerns raised relating to the Bill of Rights more important than your example -- where the skimpy nature of the article fails to show if and how the 4th Amendment is violated, what standard the courts are using in allowing any such demand for documents, or whether the provision would even be upheld by the courts. Certainly, if the records are obtained in violation of the 4th Amendment, we can expect any evidence obtained to be excluded from criminal prosecution.

N/A
 
subgenius said:
Interesting, to not care about a "bait and switch" piece of legislation.
Call it the "Patriot Act", who could be against that?
Say its anti-terrorist, but use it against strip clubs, and politicians.
No problem, they could have used other laws. So why didn't they?
Watch that first step, its a doozy.
Heartening to see folks so trusting. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I will sleep much better tonight knowing there are folks with such unquestioning loyalty.

Hey SG,

If the PA was such a bad piece of legislation, then why did the Democratic members of Congress and Senate approve of it in such dramatic numbers?

356 representatives and 98 senators voted for the act. Needless to say, they weren't all fear-mongering, right wing republicans!
;)

-z
 
rikzilla said:


Hey SG,

If the PA was such a bad piece of legislation, then why did the Democratic members of Congress and Senate approve of it in such dramatic numbers?

356 representatives and 98 senators voted for the act. Needless to say, they weren't all fear-mongering, right wing republicans!
;)

-z

Why?

Just two suggestions:

- fear of being perceived as unpatriotic (they didn´t name this thing Patriot Act for nothing)
- fear of being perceived as soft on terrorism (especially while the population was so hyped up about terrorism)

Think about it.
 
Chaos said:


Why?

Just two suggestions:

- fear of being perceived as unpatriotic (they didn´t name this thing Patriot Act for nothing)
- fear of being perceived as soft on terrorism (especially while the population was so hyped up about terrorism)

Think about it.
There you go.

And to NoZed, my bitter sarcasm wasn't directed at you particularly.

And I didn't mean to suggest the law would be the end of the Bill of Rights.

And to rik, greater numbers of people making a mistake don't make something any less of a mistake.
You OK with its use against strip clubs and elected officials?
Why the need to sell it as something and use it for something else?

I'm OK, I'm not a terrorist, strip club owner or politician.
 
subgenius said:

There you go.

And to NoZed, my bitter sarcasm wasn't directed at you particularly.

Ah. Good.

I wasn't sure what I had said; I thought that I had been - as always - the voice of calm reason and the very essence of rationality.

N/A
 
NoZed Avenger said:


Ah. Good.

I wasn't sure what I had said; I thought that I had been - as always - the voice of calm reason and the very essence of rationality.

N/A
Except when you fly off the handle and babble incoherently.
 
rikzilla said:
98 senators voted for the act.
Who didn't?

"There is a large national movement that questions elements of the USA Patriot Act," said Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., the only senator to vote against it. "I think all of that has led to the name USA Patriot Act not being what the administration hoped it would be. They shouldn't have used that name in the first place."

Vice-President Feingold. I like it.
 
Roadtoad said:


Cheney has forgotten that in the past, we had a much SMALLER government, that did less, but did what it did better than we do it now. That, as much as anything, is why we have such a screwy mess in D.C. these days.

And when would that be? In 1920?

The Federal Government has gotten smaller consistantly since the 1960s.

The 1940s - 1960s were the height of big gov.
 

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