Good Luck to Angela Merkel

[Cleopatra]

Tonight we'll know if Germany will have the first female chancellor and if a woman will repeat the glory of one of the most serious politicians in History--Margareth Thacher.

I have posted many times that parliamentary democracy has been born in UK but serious political entities/political parties are a German invention.

CDU is maybe the most serious political entity in Europe, a leading power in the formation of the european affairs pushing to the direction of more democracy and participation and it has played a major role in the marginalization of the communist plague that tortured the Old Continent for decades.

Good luck to CDU and Angela Merkel.

 

[Jon_in_london]

"but serious political entities/political parties are a German invention. "

What, like the NAZIs?

 

[Cleopatra]

"but serious political entities/political parties are a German invention. "

What, like the NAZIs?

Theoritically speaking the NAZI party was a very effective and serious political entity. I judge a party by the way it is organized and its effectiveness in passing to the general public its basic principles.Whether I like those principles or not is another story.

 

[Zep]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cleopatra
Does anybody have any idea as to why" 1. Darat keeps deleting my posts. 2. He keeps protecting antisemites?

---

 

[Kiless]

I'd challenge that.

How much of it was actually due to the disorganisation of German society at the time and the inability of other political parties to coordinate themselves to be seen as legitimate powers worth voting for?

Pardon me, it's late, but I'm also concerned about your rallying for Angela Merkel and the CDU (my apologies for not knowing enough about that group, but I intend to) and your comparison to a person generally considered to be one of the most loathed people in British history.

Is your support for Margaret Thatcher ('Margareth Thacher'?) based upon her opposition of communism?

I must admit, I am biased against Thatcher for her support of tabacco advertising after she was hired by Phillip Morris and her push into less developed countries with these highly addictive and dangerous products... let alone her support for Pinochet. Her actions during her time of political power didn't directly affect me but certainly I'd be interested in seeing others opinions comparing Thatcher to Merkel and if it's a good one.

Sorry. Very late. May return later, this interests me.

 

[Kiless]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cleopatra
Does anybody have any idea as to why" 1. Darat keeps deleting my posts. 2. He keeps protecting antisemites?

---

I also think that, and this has nothing to do with this post AT ALL -

Respectfully, I am of the opinion that you really need to speak to moderators (plural, mind) and sort yourself out, Ms Cleopatra.

For on the face of this, it appears you are not happy here and I question why you would stay if you are so troubled that you place such a potentially libellous statement in a signature.

It doesn't do the look of your posts much good, either! :O)

Perhaps that should be sorted out in another thread, however.

Or better yet - perhaps a private board should be set up for all interested parties to sort it out? I believe such a thing is already going down as I saw something of it in regards to rule clarifications?

But then, this is you and you do what you feel you must with regards to consequences that entail.

 

[Kerberos]

Tonight we'll know if Germany will have the first female chancellor and if a woman will repeat the glory of one of the most serious politicians in History--Margareth Thacher.

I have posted many times that parliamentary democracy has been born in UK but serious political entities/political parties are a German invention.

CDU is maybe the most serious political entity in Europe, a leading power in the formation of the european affairs pushing to the direction of more democracy and participation and it has played a major role in the marginalization of the communist plague that tortured the Old Continent for decades.

Good luck to CDU and Angela Merkel.

I don't know enough about Merkel to have a really informed opinion, but she can hardly do worse than Schrôder.

 

[Chaos]

Tonight we'll know if Germany will have the first female chancellor and if a woman will repeat the glory of one of the most serious politicians in History--Margareth Thacher.

I have posted many times that parliamentary democracy has been born in UK but serious political entities/political parties are a German invention.

CDU is maybe the most serious political entity in Europe, a leading power in the formation of the european affairs pushing to the direction of more democracy and participation and it has played a major role in the marginalization of the communist plague that tortured the Old Continent for decades.

Good luck to CDU and Angela Merkel.

Oh please... supporting Angela Merkel? I mean, okay, she is the first female candidate for that job (by a real party, not a bunch of loonies), but still... I´m all for a woman in that position, just for the heck of it, if for no other reason - but my desire for that doesn´t go far enough for me to support the CDU.

The CDU is the Christian Democratic Union - except that, in my eyes, it isn´t Christian, nor is it Democratic. Okay, not being Christian wouldn´t be a dealbreaker, despite Christian being my first name, and all the puns included in that. (Yes, I am Christian in name only )
They´re also the party of Helmut Kohl, the chancellor who single-handedly caused the German Reunification to happen - at least that´s what will be in the history books. He is the demi-god of German conservatives. He is also who presided over no less than two major campaign finance scandals, who stated flat out that his promise of anonymity to a donor was more important to him than the law that states he´d have to name that donor. He is the man who, if the parliamentary commissions had had the guts to ask the right questions, and not be content with "I won´t tell", would have to spend the rest of his life in prison for the second of these scandals.
It was Helmut Kohl who promised Germans after the reunification that "we´ll lift East Germany to West German standards of living, everybody will be better off, nobody will be worse off, and it won´t cost a thing". His opponent back then (in the 1990 elections) said it was going to be hard, take a long time, and cost a crapload of money. Well, Kohl was re-elected, and the opponent was proven right. Go figure.
It was also Helmut Kohl who perfected the tactic of "sitting out" things - that is, doing nothing and waiting for the problem to disappear.

And now we have Angela Merkel, who is as close as anyone in the CDU to being Helmut Kohl´s chosen successor. The only good thing I can say about her is that she is a better candidate than Edmund Stoiber, head of the CSU (the CDU´s Bavarian branch), who during the 2002 campaign was nicknamed "the Bavarian Ayatollah" by the press.

So, please forgive me if I hope that the CDU does not win.


BTW, the expected results (as of yesterday) are roughly:
CDU 41%
SPD 34% (Social Democrats; major partner of the ruling coalition)
Greens 7% (minor partner of the ruling coalition)
FDP 6.5% (Liberals; used to be minor parter of CDU-led coalition)
Linke/PDS 8% (former East German Socialists, newly joined with disgruntled Ex-SPD members who think their party moved too far to the right)
Others 3% (lots of small parties, mostly either extremists or lunatics)

 

[Cleopatra]

According to the exit polls CDU didn't do as well as it was expected.

 

[Cleopatra]

Re: Re: Good Luck to Angela Merkel

Oh please... supporting Angela Merkel? I mean, okay, she is the first female candidate for that job (by a real party, not a bunch of loonies), but still... I´m all for a woman in that position, just for the heck of it, if for no other reason - but my desire for that doesn´t go far enough for me to support the CDU.

I support her because she is a Christian Democrat. I have been a representative of the Greek Conservative Party in European CD Unions since I was first elected one ( in EDS)when I was a student at the University.
I see the european conservatives as a significant movement towards the european unification and as you know I am a passionate europhile!

The CDU is the Christian Democratic Union - except that, in my eyes, it isn´t Christian, nor is it Democratic.

As for the CDU being a Christian political entity well although it's hard to deny the influnce of Vatican in Germany I believe that there is no doubt about its secular nature. As for the Democratic, this is an interesting discussion. In my opinion when an individual joins a political party as a member he voluntarily agrees in abandoning a small part of his/her freedom.

They´re also the party of Helmut Kohl, the chancellor who single-handedly caused the German Reunification to happen - at least that´s what will be in the history books. He is the demi-god of German conservatives.

And of many Germans considering that the dream for the reunification was very vivid among the German population.

I'd blame Kohl for his stance in the Yugoslavian issue and his (failed--thank God!) attempt to form the Franco-German axis in the EU. He practially threw the British in the arms of USA.

When Germans will understand that Europe doesn't belong to them? Anyway.

Politically speaking and leaving aside the judgements about specific actions, in my opinion CDU has been and will be a leading conservative power in EU.

As for Angela. Too stift for my taste but she will do the job pretty well.

 

[Chaos]

Re: Re: Re: Good Luck to Angela Merkel

I support her because she is a Christian Democrat. I have been a representative of the Greek Conservative Party in European CD Unions since I was first elected one ( in EDS)when I was a student at the University.

Don´t go by names alone, that can be misleading. For example, the Republicans in Germany are neo-Nazis, while in the US, they aren´t that bad.

I see the european conservatives as a significant movement towards the european unification and as you know I am a passionate europhile!

Do you believe that the social democrats are not interested in European unification? Then, I think, you have fallen for conservative propaganda.

As for the CDU being a Christian political entity well although it's hard to deny the influnce of Vatican in Germany I believe that there is no doubt about its secular nature. As for the Democratic, this is an interesting discussion. In my opinion when an individual joins a political party as a member he voluntarily agrees in abandoning a small part of his/her freedom.

My point was, they´re not Christian, they´re hypocrites. Many of their members, the Bavarians especially, also stand some very... Catholic viewpoints, if you know what I mean. IOW they tend to be reactionaries.

And of many Germans considering that the dream for the reunification was very vivid among the German population.

The reunification could just as well have happened under a Social Democrat chancellor. Kohl was merely in the right place at the right time.

I'd blame Kohl for his stance in the Yugoslavian issue and his (failed--thank God!) attempt to form the Franco-German axis in the EU. He practially threw the British in the arms of USA.

When Germans will understand that Europe doesn't belong to them? Anyway.

I won´t argue with that. Personally, I wouldn´t want to own Europe if I could get it for free. Too many problems, you see?

Personally, I am as pro-Europe - or europhile, as you call it - as your next man, but I think that the practical execution of the European idea - that is, the EU - urgently needs reforms. The bureaucracy is way too big, there is too much political horse dealing and too little democracy. Also, the legislation covers the wrong areas: why is it that we have 30,000 words of legislation on the import of toffees, but can´t for the heck of it get a common foreign policy organized?

Politically speaking and leaving aside the judgements about specific actions, in my opinion CDU has been and will be a leading conservative power in EU.

Sorry, but a party that still reveres an ex-chancellor with such questionable views of promises versus national law doesn´t deserve my vote.
Besides, they´ve done nothing in the last seven years than to blockade the few promising pieces of legislation that the administraiton proposed. That, and berating the administration for being inept.

 

[Earthborn]

They´re also the party of Helmut Kohl, the chancellor who single-handedly caused the German Reunification to happen - at least that´s what will be in the history books.

Not in American history books. In American history books Ronald Reagan did that.

I think it is more likely that Ronald Reagan did it. It wouldn't have been very hard for the man who also singlehandedly liberated Eatern Europe and caused to Soviet Union to fall.

It was also Helmut Kohl who perfected the tactic of "sitting out" things - that is, doing nothing and waiting for the problem to disappear.

Quite often a fine strategy.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Thatcher wasnt perfect but she was the first good idea this country had in decades.

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Luck to Angela Merkel

Personally, I am as pro-Europe - or europhile, as you call it - as your next man, but I think that the practical execution of the European idea - that is, the EU - urgently needs reforms. The bureaucracy is way too big

I realize this topic isn't about the EU, but I really can't refrain from commenting on this. The total EU budget is about 1% of EU's BNI, Bureaucracy takes up 6% of that, that is 0,06% of the EU's BNI, about the same as the bureaucracy available to the major of Paris. The myth of a huge bloated EU bureaucracy is just that, a myth. Here's a link tto a breakdown of the EY budget.
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/budget/data/D2005_VOL1/EN/nmc-grseq42960935830-3/index.html

 

[Chaos]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Luck to Angela Merkel

I realize this topic isn't about the EU, but I really can't refrain from commenting on this. The total EU budget is about 1% of EU's BNI, Bureaucracy takes up 6% of that, that is 0,06% of the EU's BNI, about the same as the bureaucracy available to the major of Paris. The myth of a huge bloated EU bureaucracy is just that, a myth. Here's a link tto a breakdown of the EY budget.
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/budget/data/D2005_VOL1/EN/nmc-grseq42960935830-3/index.html

BTW French bureaucracy is also known for being really big...

[/derail]

The preliminary results:

Christian Democratic Union (CDU) - 35%
Social Democratic Party (SPD) - 34%
Free Democratic Party (FDP) - 10%
Party of Democratic Socialism/The Left (PDS/Die Linke) - 9%
Green Party (Die Grünen) - 8%
all others combined - 4%

There are now three possibilities for what could happen:

- a grand coalition of CDU and SPD (highly unlikely in my opinion - both party have invested too much political capital in being anti-each-other)
- SPD plus two of the smaller parties
- CDU plus two of the smaller parties

As for building a coalition with the smaller parties, both CDU and SPD have declared that they will NOT, under no circumstances (translation: unless the other parties prove too willful) ally with the PDS/Die Linke. This is mostly because that party was created by an alliance of disgruntled ex-SPD members (which is not too bad) and the PDS, which is the successor of the SED, the ruling Socialist party of East Germany. The PDS/Die Linke having gained some 50-odd seats, our parliament will now contain, among others, about 20-30 former spies and informants ("inofficial cooperators" in GDR terms) of the infamous Ministerium für Staatssicherheit (Ministry of State Security), or "Stasi" for short.

 

[Peskanov]

Chaos, how would you explain the good results of the PDS?
Nostalgia in East Germany?

 

[003998]

Allthough I am not Chaos, I will give you my POV:

There are two major reasons for the PDS´s results.
First and foremost, they were voted for nearly exclusively in East Germany (around 25% of the votes there). Many East Germans are distrustful of West Germany´s parties because they have promised much and archieved close to nothing for the economical situation of East Germany. The PDS is seen as a mostly East German party.

Second, historically the SPD and Greens were elected by the democratic left-leaning parts of the population. During their last term, they installed many reforms, that seemed far away from idealistic leftist ideas. Up until quite recently, they were without another option. But the PDS has merged with a small western party (the WASG, Wahlalternative Soziale Gerechtigkeit - voting alternative social justness). This served to polish their image and they are now seen as a serious alternative by many left-leaning people. Furthermore, they present an opportunity to express protest against all the established parties without wasting one´s vote.


On the recent developments. The car´s stuck. There are only three options that are seriously considered. Chaos named them already. For each of those possibilities, one of the partners has already announced that they will not accept the coalition. It may come down to a minority gouvernment or new elections. Lots of fun down the road.

 

[Chaos]

Allthough I am not Chaos, I will give you my POV:

There are two major reasons for the PDS´s results.
First and foremost, they were voted for nearly exclusively in East Germany (around 25% of the votes there). Many East Germans are distrustful of West Germany´s parties because they have promised much and archieved close to nothing for the economical situation of East Germany. The PDS is seen as a mostly East German party.

Second, historically the SPD and Greens were elected by the democratic left-leaning parts of the population. During their last term, they installed many reforms, that seemed far away from idealistic leftist ideas. Up until quite recently, they were without another option. But the PDS has merged with a small western party (the WASG, Wahlalternative Soziale Gerechtigkeit - voting alternative social justness). This served to polish their image and they are now seen as a serious alternative by many left-leaning people. Furthermore, they present an opportunity to express protest against all the established parties without wasting one´s vote.


On the recent developments. The car´s stuck. There are only three options that are seriously considered. Chaos named them already. For each of those possibilities, one of the partners has already announced that they will not accept the coalition. It may come down to a minority gouvernment or new elections. Lots of fun down the road.

Nice to see you´re back (you were active in late ´03 or, right? I remember reading posts by you or someone with a similar numeric username about Möllemann)

I agree with your analysis. Maybe I should add for the benefit of our foreign readers that the WASG was founded by a former cabinet member of the SPD/Green government, Oskar Lafontaine, who quit after about half a year, apparently because the reality of his job would not match his ideology. The merger with the PDS is considered by many, even some disappointed WASG members, to be providing a democratic fig leaf for the PDS, with which they hope to gloss over their past as autocratic rulers; WASG´s reason for merging was probably to get above the 5% threshold - due to the German constitution, only parties that get at least 5% of the votes can enter parliament.