God is smart, powerful, and good? No.

[Jesse2]

One of the fundamental christian tenets is that God is three things:

Omnipotent, which means all-powerful

Omnicient, which means all-knowing

Omnibenevolent, which means all-good

My question is, how can God be these things, and still allow all the suffering in the world to exist?

A christian will say that these things exist because God gives us free will. Why does God inflict us with such a terrible curse as free will? God must know what great and horrendous evil we will do to create such suffering in this world. God must know ahead of time everyone that will go to 'hell'. God created the devil, and yet allows it to exist. Is the devil just God's pet?

For there to be evil, we must take away some of God's powers.

Perhaps he is not all-knowing, and therefore did not know what horrendous and terrifying things he would create.

Perhaps the power of God is limited, and therefore it is out of God's hands what happens on this Earth or in the 'afterlife'.

Perhaps God is not a loving and benevolent God, and is forced by certain laws of the universe to do what he does.

Perhaps God is not any of these things or does not exist at all.

What is the answer?

(edited to correct some grammar)

 

[Upchurch]

What is the answer?

The answer is that omnipotent is logically inconsistant, therefore a definition of God that includes "omnipotent" is logically inconsistant.

That is why religions tend towards definitions that use phrases like "most powerful" rather than "omnipotent".

 

[Jesse2]

Re: Re: God is smart, powerful, and good? No.

The answer is that omnipotent is logically inconsistant, therefore a definition of God that includes "omnipotent" is logically inconsistant.

That is why religions tend towards definitions that use phrases like "most powerful" rather than "omnipotent".

I won't argue against what you are saying. I've been through the Lutheran school system, I was taught that omnipotent was the correct word, and any christian I talk to will not disagree with the term omnipotent meaning "all-powerful".

 

[Nyarlathotep]

What is the answer?

You haven't adressed the possibility that he is non-existant.

That makes the seeming contradictions in his character disapear like the morning dew.

 

[Jesse2]

Re: Re: God is smart, powerful, and good? No.

You haven't adressed the possibility that he is non-existant.

That makes the seeming contradictions in his character disapear like the morning dew.

Thanks. I added that one in.

 

[hgc]

jesse,

Have you even taken into account the bad stuff that can't possibly be associated with "free will," the so-called "acts of God." Take for instance the current Euro-heatwave, where lots of people are dying (is that bad vis-a-vis omnibenevolence?) or a case where a storm knocks a tree down on a family driving to Home Depot, and all but one die.

Does Satan control the whether?

Oh, my head hurts just thinking about it. I think I'll stick to the non-conscious universe theory.

 

[The Mad Linguist]

Is it just me, or do all defenses to the Argument from Evil collapse to an appeal to some conjectured greater good that is unknown and, furthermore, unknowable?

Seems like ad hoc reasoning to me.

 

[Jesse2]

With christians, I have found that the defense always amounts to free will. "God gave us free will, therefore he can still be all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing". They act as if free will is a wonderful gift from God.

 

[Lord Kenneth]

One could simply say that since our time on earth is simply a test, the pain felt is meaningless becaues eternity in heaven is the big picture.

 

[Jesse2]

Playing "Devil's Advocate" eh? Fundamental to christianity is a belief in hell. So, regardless of this suffering-test on earth, there is a hell awaiting the unbelievers. In advance, God is supposed to know exactly who all those unbelievers are, and so God must know exactly who he is condemning to hell before he does so.

 

[Nucular]

One could simply say that since our time on earth is simply a test, the pain felt is meaningless becaues eternity in heaven is the big picture.

So God wouldn't mind if I started, say, torturing children to death on a daily basis? Presumably anyone who actually uses this as a theodicy also wouldn't mind - the pain is meaningless, right?

 

[SteveW]

I thought the explanation of why everything is not "good" in the world is because of Eve's temptation to eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

God then took paradise away and let evil befall the world.

At least thats the hogwash that is meeted out in Xian thinking.

 

[Marc]

I think an omnipotent god and free will are mutually exclusive.

If god is omnipotent then he knows everything that will happen. The future is already known, our choices then are already determined, so no free will. If god doesn't know the future then he isn't omnipotent.

Also if you take god as creating the universe, then he created it already knowing everything that would happen, including who was going to hell or heaven. Your afterlife is already determined long ago. If he didn't want you to go to hell then he would have created a different world in which you were not destined for there.

 

[Nucular]

I think an omnipotent god and free will are mutually exclusive.

If god is omnipotent then he knows everything that will happen. The future is already known, our choices then are already determined, so no free will. If god doesn't know the future then he isn't omnipotent.

Also if you take god as creating the universe, then he created it already knowing everything that would happen, including who was going to hell or heaven. Your afterlife is already determined long ago. If he didn't want you to go to hell then he would have created a different world in which you were not destined for there.

This is a common argument, but I'm not sure it's true. If God knows what choices you're going to make, it doesn't mean it's not you who made the choices. It calls into question God's benevolence, though.

The argument kind of semi-works, possibly, if God experiences time like everyone else, but knows the future; but if God is outside of time, which presumably He would be, it means He perceives everything that's ever happened and ever will happen all at once, which is kind of like our conception of what time is (I think): spacetime is all one static lump, but we just perceive a 'flow'. If you replace God knowing your future with the universe 'knowing' your future, does that also eradicate free will? I don't think it does.

Not that I necessarily think free will is a coherent concept anyway, mind - I just don't think this is the reason it's not.

 

[Yahweh]

Most people havent really taken the time to define "god". There is nothing that says "To be a god, you must be omnipotent". Nothing that says "To be a god, you must be all knowing". There is no reason why a god must desire good. There is also no reason why being God requires you to be everywhere.

All we know about "god" is the that he is "conscious". From there we dont know what defines a god.

Of course, an easy, very plausible, and scientifically sound solution to the problem is "God doesnt exist, everything came about by natural means".

 

[ImpyTimpy]

Can God make a rock so big even he can't lift?

Yes. At the time of lifting, time itself will freeze because the force needed to lift the rock will tend towards infinity as will the rock's weight. Since God is omnipotent he'll be able to lift the unliftable rock but at the exact same time the rock will become unliftable to the omnipotent God and vice versa.

There you go - a rock so big even God can not lift it.

Therefore omnipotence is not logically impossible.

 

[Yahweh]

Can God make a rock so big even he can't lift?

Yes. At the time of lifting, time itself will freeze because the force needed to lift the rock will tend towards infinity as will the rock's weight. Since God is omnipotent he'll be able to lift the unliftable rock but at the exact same time the rock will become unliftable to the omnipotent God and vice versa.

There you go - a rock so big even God can not lift it.

Therefore omnipotence is not logically impossible.

Logical flaw: "Since God is omnipotent he'll be able to lift the unliftable rock but at the exact same time the rock will become unliftable to the omnipotent God and vice versa". That scenario is self-contradicting.

Logical "Whaaaa": Omnipotence implies the ability to do anything, even exist outside the realm of rational logic. Therefore nothing logical or rational can be said to provide support for or against the belief in an omnipotent god. Your scenario has an ambigous solution, its rendered useless.

 

[ntech]

It would be more fun if god would do these magic tricks that the theists say he does.

We could use more entertainment on this planet.

 

[Jesse2]

jesse,

Have you even taken into account the bad stuff that can't possibly be associated with "free will," the so-called "acts of God." Take for instance the current Euro-heatwave, where lots of people are dying (is that bad vis-a-vis omnibenevolence?) or a case where a storm knocks a tree down on a family driving to Home Depot, and all but one die.

Does Satan control the whether?

Well, Yahweh, the jealous god of divine wrath is consistently destructive in the the Old Testament. The Old Testament is still considered by christians to be an aspect of the the bible, the divine and inspired word of God.

Trying to turn god from yahweh into the ultimate 'good guy' just doesn't click with all the suffering that takes place. But your point is well taken: Not all suffering takes place because of the 'free will' granted to humans. As the insurance companies call it, disastrous weather is quite often an 'act of God'.

 

[ImpyTimpy]

Logical flaw: "Since God is omnipotent he'll be able to lift the unliftable rock but at the exact same time the rock will become unliftable to the omnipotent God and vice versa". That scenario is self-contradicting.

Hence the problem of no-time. Time would freeze since both force and mass would tend towards infinity. Therefore both constraints would be satisfied at exactly the same time but no movement forward would be possible since any change to the situation would either make the rock unliftable or god too weak to lift it.

Logical "Whaaaa": Omnipotence implies the ability to do anything, even exist outside the realm of rational logic. Therefore nothing logical or rational can be said to provide support for or against the belief in an omnipotent god. Your scenario has an ambigous solution, its rendered useless.

Good point!