"God genes" versus cultural exposure

advancedatheist

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Maybe someone can explain this to me: I've noticed the intellectual fad that tries to attribute religious belief to "god genes," "god parts of the brain" and so forth, but I have found this conjecture unsatisfactory for a couple reasons:

One, it fails to account for the explosive growth of religious nonbelief over the last century. Communist movements and regimes had a lot to do with that, but religious belief has also spontaneously declined in developed countries beyond the Iron Curtain where people have the freedom to study and practice any religion they want. (The U.S remains aberrational in that regard. In terms of religiosity we resemble a Third World country.)

Two, children have to acquire these beliefs from their cultural environment, otherwise they wouldn't independently think them up. Considering that children learn about god in the same way they learn about Harry Potter, what happens to their "god genes/neurons" when they don't receive exposure to this information? In my experience people who grow up atheistic don't seem any the worse for it -- if anything, they often seem light-years ahead of the rest of humanity because they have less nonsense inhibiting their ability to understand and analyze problems. So from the perspective of healthy human biological functioning, religious belief seems quite unnecessary.

Considering these facts, it sounds to me as if the "god gene" speculators have depended too much on the peculiar cultural situation in the U.S. instead of examining the religious situation worldwide to see the anomalies that conflict with their theory.
 
Here's the Time article about the "God Gene" idea:

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101041025-725072,00.html

I think that what is going on is that the genes may predispose one to a numinous feeling. Whether that feeling get channeled into organized religion is a separate story. In an irreligious region like Europe, such things may lead to a pursuit of the aesthetic or an enjoyment of nature. It may also be speculated that while the majority of religious people don't have this sense of the numinous, the ones who start religions do have this sense, and then other cultural factors cause others to follow the religion.
 
advancedatheist said:
One, it fails to account for the explosive growth of religious nonbelief over the last century. Communist movements and regimes had a lot to do with that, but religious belief has also spontaneously declined in developed countries beyond the Iron Curtain where people have the freedom to study and practice any religion they want. (The U.S remains aberrational in that regard. In terms of religiosity we resemble a Third World country.)
Third world countries are in fact quite populous, so I would question whether the 20th century was characterised by an explosion in unbelief. In fact I would say to the contrary that during the 20th century there was an explosive resurgence of belief after the enlightenment 18th and the mechanistic 19th centuries.

Nevertheless I am also somewhat skeptical of 'God Spot' and 'God Gene' claims - I am doubtful that Persinger's experiments actually had the results he claimed.
 
Re: Re: "God genes" versus cultural exposure

Robin said:
Third world countries are in fact quite populous, so I would question whether the 20th century was characterised by an explosion in unbelief. In fact I would say to the contrary that during the 20th century there was an explosive resurgence of belief after the enlightenment 18th and the mechanistic 19th centuries.

The number of religious nonbelievers alive today, around 800 million, exceeds the entire population of the world alive 200 years ago. By the demographic standards from the time Thomas Jefferson served his second term as President, we have a planet full of "infidels":

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Re: Re: Re: "God genes" versus cultural exposure

advancedatheist said:
The number of religious nonbelievers alive today, around 800 million, exceeds the entire population of the world alive 200 years ago. By the demographic standards from the time Thomas Jefferson served his second term as President, we have a planet full of "infidels"
Hmm... Are you sure you are quite happy with the statistical basis of this statement?
 
There are so many things wrong with this article and the "research" that I nearly had a heart attack reading it. Is anyone else disturbed that Dean Hamer has a degree and works for the National Cancer Institute? What hope is there for curing cancer?
The study itself is ridiculous; his initial sample study was small and biased (all smokers, which is indicative of class), and he used a personality test. Did he get it out of Cosmo? He found a correlation between answers to some questions and some genes. I'm not terribly impressed.
Since when did publishing a book (and not a scientific, peer-reviewed paper), mean anything? People run around publishing books on how humans lived side by side with the dinosaurs, I should hope that isn’t enough to convince the fine journalists of time magazine that it’s true.
Here are some of my favorite quotes:

"In other words, did humans create religion from cues sent from above, or did evolution instill in us a sense of the divine so that we would gather into the communities essential to keeping the species going?"
Do I even need to say that evolution does not act on the level of "species"? Pair bonding and kin selection seems to work for birds and all sorts of other creatures, but we're supposed to buy that humans skipped all that and evolved a "divine" gene?

"Humans who developed a spiritual sense thrived and bequeathed that trait to their offspring. Those who didn't risked dying out in chaos and killing. The evolutionary equation is a simple but powerful one."
I'm still not convinced that being spiritual is the root of sociality in humans. Perhaps we could extend this theory to eusocial insects like ants?

"For one thing, God is a concept that appears in human cultures all over the globe, regardless of how geographically isolated they are."
The BaMbuti pygmies didn’t really have a god. They worshipped the forest and did not personify it. So really, it doesn’t apply to all cultures.

"One of those reasons might be that, as the sole species—as far as we know—capable of contemplating its own death..."
Why would we assume that? Elephants obviously mourn, and comprehend the death of those close to them, why should we assume that they do not conceptualize their own death?

I have to stop; I'm getting twitchy just thinking about it....
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: "God genes" versus cultural exposure

Robin said:
Hmm... Are you sure you are quite happy with the statistical basis of this statement?

Do you propose a smaller figure, say, 200 million nonbelievers alive today? That would compare with the population of the world during Roman & Byzantine times, when Christianity and then Islam got started. We would still have the equivalent of a godless planet, only further back in the past.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "God genes" versus cultural exposure

advancedatheist said:
Do you propose a smaller figure, say, 200 million nonbelievers alive today?

I think the problem is that you have to compare the relative percentage of nonbelievers for a statistically meaningful comparison.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "God genes" versus cultural exposure

advancedatheist said:
Do you propose a smaller figure, say, 200 million nonbelievers alive today? That would compare with the population of the world during Roman & Byzantine times, when Christianity and then Islam got started. We would still have the equivalent of a godless planet, only further back in the past.
I wasn't proposing a smaller figure, I was suggesting that a planet of unbelievers is not very impressive when they share that planet with 11 times that many believers.

I don't know that this has grown as a proportion since the 18th century. I would guess the opposite.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "God genes" versus cultural exposure

SwissSkeptic said:
I think the problem is that you have to compare the relative percentage of nonbelievers for a statistically meaningful comparison.

Take the data from this link and make your own pie chart:

Annual Table of World Religions, 1900-2025
http://www.wnrf.org/cms/statuswr.shtml

According to this table, the number of "atheists" in 1900, 226,000, amounted to 0.014% of the world's population at that time. The figure in 2002, 150,804,000, equates to 2.4% of the population in that year. The table also shows a similar growth in the percentage of "non-religious," which probably comprises a number of atheists who want to keep a low profile.
 
I think we're all born blank. We just learn to do and believe what we're told. That's all.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "God genes" versus cultural exposure

advancedatheist said:
Take the data from this link and make your own pie chart:

Annual Table of World Religions, 1900-2025
http://www.wnrf.org/cms/statuswr.shtml

According to this table, the number of "atheists" in 1900, 226,000, amounted to 0.014% of the world's population at that time. The figure in 2002, 150,804,000, equates to 2.4% of the population in that year. The table also shows a similar growth in the percentage of "non-religious," which probably comprises a number of atheists who want to keep a low profile.
This gets quoted a lot in a number of contexts. And the source? Well ultimately the "World Christian Encyclopedia". According to the same source the "structures of sin" during the decade of evangalism cost the US economy 9 trillion dollars. Quoted from the Library Journal review:
Volume 1 offers a global overview of Christianity, with relevant data. The introduction begins with the statement "The phenomenon of Christianity is here described and analyzed from some 40 standpoints, into 40 parts." What follows is an infuriating use of categories, subcategories, and sub-subcategories, which divide and subdivide parts to give the statistics the appearance of being scientifically derived. To make matters more confusing, the authors invent, and freely use, a maddening and confusing array of neologisms such as geostatus, globalistics, and futurescan. All this leads to lists and lists of statistics and facts.
and:
Volume 3 can be best described as an explosion of numbers, categories, cross-listings of what the editors define as "miniprofiles" of at least 10,000 distinct religions, 12,600 peoples, 13,500 languages, 7000 cities, and 3030 major civil divisions in 238 countries. What results is hundred of pages of utterly confusing statistics, some highly suspect, culturally biased, and anthropologically useless (such as categorizing people by using moribund race-defining terms as Australoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid and further subdividing those into "stylized colors" such as black, grey, brown, red, tan, white, and yellow). There is a need for a comparative survey of world Christian churches and other religions. This is not it. Not recommended.
I doubt that the historical statistics to do this comparison actually exist and I have never seen any serious research on the subject.

People always assume that the 20th century was characterised by a growth in atheism but with no real basis for this assertion. At least in Europe I would have expected religion to be at it's lowest ebb around the 18th century when it was hopelessly tied to obsolete and unpopular power structures and under attack from the growing scientific revolution as well as enlightenment ideals. One day when I have time I will go into this in detail.
 

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