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Giving Skepticism a Bad Name

Brown

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
12,984
From ABC News (USA) (with the main page link entitled "Skeptics Continue to Make Noise"):
More than three years after the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the skeptics are still out there, and despite a massive government investigation into the causes, threats and government response, in the final days before the presidential election, the doubters have been making more noise.

One organization, reopen911.org, has launched an ad campaign calling for a new investigation into what happened on Sept. 11, and another group, 911truth.org, is filing a formal complaint with the New York state attorney general, seeking a criminal investigation. (emphasis mine)
These guys are not "skeptics." They are nuts. It is one thing to question the 9/11 report upon rational grounds, and quite another thing to go off the deep end:
"We were terrorized and it wasn't 19 screw-ups with box cutters from Saudi Arabia," [Jimmy Walters] said. "It had to be somebody bigger, better organized."

His conspiracy theory involves secret U.S. government operatives boarding the four hijacked planes, which he said were then secretly landed and replaced in the skies by remote-controlled drones that were then crashed into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania, all to create a pretext for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
It is easy to spot about half a dozen serious problems with this "theory," although I am reluctant to dignify this schizophrenic fantasy with that word. This guy is a crank, not a skeptic. I'll bet that, unless the government said, "By golly, Jimmy is 100 per cent right!!", he wouldn't believe what the government said, no matter how well supported by the facts.

Then there is this group, which edges a little closer to sanity... but not much closer:
The group [911truth.org] also released what it calls the 9/11 Truth Statement, which it said is "a call for immediate inquiry into evidence that suggests high-level government officials may have deliberately allowed the September 11th attacks to occur."

The people who signed the statement, the group says, include presidential candidate Ralph Nader, Pentagon whistle-blower Daniel Ellsberg, retired CIA analyst Ray McGovern and former U.S. Ambassador and Chief of Mission to Iraq Edward Peck, as well as 49 family members of victims of the attacks.
The report does not identify what the "evidence" is, but the implication is that the "evidence" was not considered by the 9/11 Commission.

It is very likely that the 9/11 Commission, like other commissions before it, made some mistakes. But the 9/11 Commission laid its cards on the table and has substantial evidentiary support for its principal findings. The burden of proof is on the ones challenging the findings to show why those findings are wrong, and merely raising questions does not satisfy that burden.
 
Well this is where definitions get weird.

Skeptics are 'doubters'.
Whereas believers are 'accepters'.
So are we 'believers' for thinking the earth is round? That evolution seems to be a working mechanism? That 9/11 was committed by AlQaeda?

Or are we skeptics for doubting 'flat earth theory', creationism and conspiracy theories?

Should the definition not mean that skeptics doubt claims not backed up by evidence and observable facts?

Believing that there is an alien spacecraft in Roswell and the Government has lied about its non-existence for 50 years should not, by definition, make me a skeptic. But apparently it can.
 
Brown said:
"We were terrorized and it wasn't 19 screw-ups with box cutters from Saudi Arabia," [Jimmy Walters] said. "It had to be somebody bigger, better organized."
That's the typical thought process of a conspiracy loon. Just like a loser with a rifle couldn't have taken out a sitting president in 1963. The president was too big of a deal - the thought of a screw-up killing him is so out of balance that their brains can't handle it.
 
I saw an (otherwise) excellent Channel 4 programme a while back on the moon landing hoax bibble, in which the woos were described as "sceptics" throughout. So yes, there's some semantic confusion. I seem to recall that Richard Dawkins suggested "bright", and everyone complained that this was arrogant, I don't know why --- Richard Dawkins is bright.

Might I suggest... "adequate"?
 
There is only a problem if we somehow perceive "sceptic / skeptic" as a "good" word, referring to "us".

It's a noun. Sceptical is an adjective. Like many words, the meaning has overtones-harmonics, which extend into the rest of our culture. The overtones are relative, depending on where you happen to stand.

As for "bright"- I have great respect for Richard Dawkins, but that was just silly. Even very smart people can be, sometimes.
 
Dr Adequate said:
I saw an (otherwise) excellent Channel 4 programme a while back on the moon landing hoax bibble, in which the woos were described as "sceptics" throughout. So yes, there's some semantic confusion. I seem to recall that Richard Dawkins suggested "bright", and everyone complained that this was arrogant, I don't know why --- Richard Dawkins is bright.

Might I suggest... "adequate"?

No he's not. He's breathtakingly stupid.
 
Interesting Ian said:
No he's not. He's breathtakingly stupid.

Which, of course, explains why he's holding an endowed chair at one of the best universities in the world while Ian is .... remind me again? Do you have a job, Ian?
 
new drkitten said:
Which, of course, explains why he's holding an endowed chair at one of the best universities in the world while Ian is .... remind me again? Do you have a job, Ian?

I wonder if you understand what the word stupidity means? I've read some of his articles about God. He is breathtakingly stupid. His response to Richard Swinburne's arguments for God are facile. His comments reveal a deep entrenched inability to think philosophically.
 
People shouldn't think philosophically. It rots the brain. I can do it and stay sane because I'm Adequate, but it should be forbidden for the masses.

Who is Richard Swinburne? What are his arguments for God? What are Dawkins' counterarguments? I'm not going to take your word for what constitutes a good argument. If you knew that, you wouldn't be here.
 
Richard Dawkins is breathtakingly stupid? This from Interesting Ian.

Ian you seem to be getting confused that your words somehow change reality.
Just because someone disagrees with your world view they are stupid? This, in fact, makes you look unutterably moronic.

You are so entrenched in your arrogant little puddle of philosphical terminology (that you redefine at will) that you appear to have lost any ability to judge the relative worth or complexity of an argument and opinion that is not your own.
You are not interested in learning about anything that is not to do with philosophical word play and meaningless re-application of definitions.

If we were all like you we'd all live in caves, starving to death because we'd be trying to redefine the meaning of the word 'hungry' so that it meant 'full up'.

Enjoy your pointless philosphical games Ian, but statements doubting Richard Dawkins obvious and world respected intelligence are beyond any form of reasonable debate. It's a self-evident fact that he is extraordinarily bright.
Your opinion on the matter is entirely irrelevent to this.

Maybe this is why you like philosophy so much Ian. It allows you to feel important by defining your reality however you like and, rather than develop any form of special skill or learning, you decide to immerse yourslf in ultimately useless discussions over the meaning and perception of reality.
They are fun conversations for a bit, but when you make them your obsession then it appears to be a retreat from actually learning anything about the real world.
 
Ashles said:
Enjoy your pointless philosphical games Ian, but statements doubting Richard Dawkins obvious and world respected intelligence are beyond any form of reasonable debate. [/B]

Oh please! He should stick to talking about evolution. Maybe he's good at that; I don't know since I've read none of his books. His ideas on "God" are inane in the extreme. He attacks the most simply minded notions of "God" imaginable i.e an old man in the sky "God" of the gaps, and his philosophical ability to reason approaches zero. I've discussed an article by Dawkins about God before on here. No doubt it's long since disappeared.
 
Interesting Ian said:
He attacks the most simply minded notions of "God" imaginable i.e ...
...i.e. the one that most Bleevers believe in, but not the one that Interesting Ian's invented. Shame on him! Of course, he's never heard Interesting Ian's ideas about God (nor have I) but there you go.
 
His ideas on "God" are inane in the extreme.
And you can of course verify with references why his ideas on God are any les valid than anyone else's then?

You have somehow discovered the evidence for the nature of God that billions of people through history haven't?

Well when you show this to us then we will accept that you are correct on this issue and everyone is wrong.

Until then, I have to warn you, you are ascribing your own opinions an incorrect and unhealthy level of factual basis.

A more complex system of belief is no more real and has no more evidence than the 'Old Man in The Sky' belief. For all you know this is actually and totally correct and God DOES have a big white beard. For all you know everyone's personal beliefs are what actually happens to them.

We might as well discuss the mechanism behind how Harry Potter's magic broomstick works, and decide that the most complex theory with the most invented words is actually real and mock a stupid child who just says "It's magic".
That's exactly what you are doing Ian and I am actually quite surprised that you cannot see this any more.
 
Found it. Amazing given that it is from March 2003! Even then the post concerned is pasting in what I said a few week prior to that time. Unfortunately the original article by Dawkins is no longer available.

From here

I paste in below

II
Pity that total retard Dawkins in going to be in it though. Oh well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MaskedMentalist

I'm curious as to why you think he's a retard?


II
Well he's as thick as f***. Have you seen his various arguments which are supposed to demonstrate the unlikehood of a "God". The guy is an absolute moron.

This was what I wrote in this forum a few weeks ago regarding an essay of Dawkins. Unfortunately I can't provide a link to his essay because it's no longer there. No doubt it was removed due to my devastating critique
I paste below:

Well the first 2 paragraphs constitute no evidence against the notion of a "God" whatsoever. In the third paragraph he makes an unsubstantiated assertion. Namely where he says:


We now know that the order and apparent purposefulness of the living world has come about through an entirely different process, a process that works without the need for any designer .




I'll read on to see if he justifies it . . .

Ok, the 4th paragraph neither gives any justification for his statement, neither does it say anything which would constitute any evidence against a "God".

Ditto for the fifth paragraph.

Ditto for the sixth paragraph.

In the seventh paragraph he says:


We can safely conclude that living bodies are billions of times too complicated - too statistically improbable - to have come into being by sheer chance.



My understanding is that evolution operating through the physical laws of nature do not make this improbable. Of course the whole notion of probability only make sense within the context of the physical laws of nature. It would be meaningless to declare for example that it is improbable that the Universe could simply acausally spring into being from absolutely nothing at all (nothing in its absolute sense, no space-time continuum or anything).

Interestingly in the rest of the 7th paragraphy he directly contradicts what he said in the very first sentence of the 7th paragraph and agrees with me.

Anyway, nothing has been said so far which could be construed as constituting any evidence against a "God" whatsoever. But let's look at the eighth paragraph.

Nope, still no arguments which could be construed to have demonstrated the unlikelihood of a "God". He simply makes the point that the eye is incredibly unlikely to suddenly spring into being fully formed within the context of evolution operating according to the physical laws of nature. I really am unable to see the remote relevance of anything he has said so far concerning the question of the existence of a "God". Let's look at the 9th paragraph to see if things improve.

Well I've just read through paragraphs 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 and there is nothing in there so far which could be construed to demonstrate the unlikelihood of a "God". All he is doing is talking about evolution!

In paragraph 14 he says:


Evolution, then, is theoretically capable of doing the job that, once upon a time, seemed to be the prerogative of God.



On no! Not the stupid crass conceptualisation opf "god" represented by the "God of the gaps"! Does any intelligent theist believe thus? Conversely are any atheists capable of entertaining any notion of a "God" which is not represented by a "God of the gaps"?? Well Dawkins is supposed to be arguing for the very low probability of a "God" so I presume he won't merely content himself with dreaming up the most crass concept of "God" imaginable and argue against that. So I read on in hope . . .

Oh God! Now he's starting talking about creationism! Who the hell is interested in creationism??

Come on Dawkins! Where are your arguments that the probability ofr a "god" is unlikely???

Ok, he says in the 4th paragraph from the end:


The Argument from Design, then, has been destroyed as a reason for believing in a God.




The guy is a complete idiot. Nothing he has said remotely implies anything against the argument from design. All he has done is argue that given the way the world is changing according to the physical laws of nature, the present state of the world is to be expected. But this is wholly irrelevant to whether the world/Universe is wholly contrived! It is the fact that we do not find ourselves subsisting in a bodiless state experiencing a stream of random sensations, the fact that change in the Universe is governed by rules written in the language of mathematics which could be construed as being suggestive of argument from design.

He says near the end:


There is a temptation to argue that, although God may not be needed to explain the evolution of complex order once the universe, with its fundamental laws of physics, had begun, we do need a God to explain the origin of all things.




Not at all. There is no need for an explanation for the Universe. I have no problem with it simply acausally springing into being.


This idea doesn't leave God with very much to do: just set off the big bang, then sit back and wait for everything to happen.




Indeed. Now why don't you defend your thesis that a "God" is unlikely? I am not interested in you attacking a "God of the gaps", nor am I interested in your attacks on deism.


The physical chemist Peter Atkins, in his beautifully written book The Creation, postulates a lazy God who strove to do as little as possible in order to initiate everything. Atkins explains how each step in the history of the universe followed, by simple physical law, from its predecessor. He thus pares down the amount of work that the lazy creator would need to do and eventually concludes that he would in fact have needed to do nothing at all!




Not so beatifully written if this paragraph is a typical example. Like you he is attacking the strawman "God of the gaps" conceptualisation of "God". One is not surprised to hear this dribbling from the lips of Peter Atkins. The guy is as moronic as you are.

Ok, as I suspected before reading the essay, Dawkins has said nothing whatsoever to justify his originnal contention.

Why am I not surprised?
 
Given your compulsive tendency to erect ridiculous straw men, I'm not going to take any supposed paraphrase written by you at face value either. The text or nothing.

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
The guy is a complete idiot. Nothing he has said remotely implies anything against the argument from design. All he has done is argue that given the way the world is changing according to the physical laws of nature, the present state of the world is to be expected. But this is wholly irrelevant to whether the world/Universe is wholly contrived! It is the fact that we do not find ourselves subsisting in a bodiless state experiencing a stream of random sensations, the fact that change in the Universe is governed by rules written in the language of mathematics which could be construed as being suggestive of argument from design.
What did I tell you?
Originally posted by Dr Adequate
...i.e. the one that most Bleevers believe in, but not the one that Interesting Ian's invented. Shame on him! Of course, he's never heard Interesting Ian's ideas about God (nor have I) but there you go.
Well, my powers of psi are working well today. Interesting Ian is miffed because Dawkins has demolished the reasons why most people believe in God, but without even mentioning Interesting Ian's little philosophical fallacies. Which Dawkins never heard of, because no-one else besides Interesting Ian Bleeves them.
 
Now this is strange.

In the the above post is Interesting Ian arguing the case that Richard Dawkins is stupid or that he is stupid for not understanding any point made by Dawkins?

Because it seems very clear which one of the two possibilities is displayed.

It's like a 14 year old who's quite good at maths for his age arguing against Pythagoras and calling him stupid.

This was what I wrote in this forum a few weeks ago regarding an essay of Dawkins. Unfortunately I can't provide a link to his essay because it's no longer there. No doubt it was removed due to my devastating critique
No doubt.
It's obviously an international conspiracy to keep your unbounded genius out of the public domain Ian.
This must be why we don't constantly read of your lectures and published papers and award winning theories.
Merely your repetitive spewings on an internet message board.
 
Dr Adequate said:
People shouldn't think philosophically. It rots the brain. I can do it and stay sane because I'm Adequate, but it should be forbidden for the masses.

Who is Richard Swinburne? What are his arguments for God? What are Dawkins' counterarguments? I'm not going to take your word for what constitutes a good argument. If you knew that, you wouldn't be here.
[derail]

I havent seen many Dawkins' arguments against God, but sometimes even smart people say stupid things.

See C.S. Lewis as an example of a smart person who's arguments for Christianity which are laughably awful.

[/derail]
 

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