Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

[BPSCG]

Link

More than 200 detainees in Guantánamo Bay are in their fifth week of a hunger strike, the Guardian has been told.

Statements from prisoners in the camp which were declassified by the US government on Wednesday reveal that the men are starving themselves in protest at the conditions in the camp and at their alleged maltreatment - including desecration of the Qur'an - by American guards.

The statements, written on August 11, have just been given to the British human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smith. They show that prisoners are determined to starve them selves to death. In one, Binyam Mohammed, a former London schoolboy, said: "I do not plan to stop until I either die or we are respected.

If they're going to starve themselves to death, I wish they'd hurry up and get on with the job. Problem is, the US military keeps interfering by force-feeding them. Talibans are trying to kill themselves, for once, instead of Americans, and the most dangerous soldiers in the world are keeping them alive. Bravo for life's little ironies.

Idea: Maybe we can send the food they're not eating to New Orleans evacuees? Given a choice between feeding a foreigner who has sworn my death and an American who hasn't - now, there's a tough call.

 

[toddjh]

Given a choice between feeding a foreigner who has sworn my death and an American who hasn't - now, there's a tough call.

How do you know all of those people have "sworn your death?"

I'm not saying they haven't; I really don't know many details about which people are still at Gitmo and how those in charge decided who was who. But if there's convincing evidence, I'd like to see it.

Also, do you believe Americans are inherently better or more worthy of help than "foreigners?" The way you phrase the sentence above is somewhat ambiguous about that.

Jeremy

 

[Ryokan]

I'd like to believe all humans are of equal worth, and none deserving of death before their time.

Saying that they deserve death, exactly how are you different from them?

 

[Beerina]

> More than 200 detainees in Guantánamo Bay are in their fifth week of a hunger strike

So much for keeping them separated so they couldn't communicate.

Although letting them think they're "getting away with communicating secretely" while monitoring their chatting would be highly useful, too.


> In one, Binyam Mohammed, a former London schoolboy, said: "I
> do not plan to stop until I either die or we are respected.

Did the former London schoolboy train to murder Westerners? If not, I feel his pain. If so, I wonder why he wants respect...

 

[Beerina]

Adolph Hitler, a former Austrian schoolboy, said "I do not plan to stop until all Jews are dead."

Sheesh. No biased reporting there or anything. Poor little Adolph.

 

[BPSCG]

Re: Re: Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

How do you know all of those people have "sworn your death?"

Uh, because they were picked up on a battlefield in Afghanistan while shooting at American soldiers, I guess. If any of them are at Gitmo because they were caught shoplifting at Wal-Mart, I withdraw the OP.

Also, do you believe Americans are inherently better or more worthy of help than "foreigners?" The way you phrase the sentence above is somewhat ambiguous about that.

I believe Americans are inherently more worthy of my help (e.g., tax dollars) than foreigners, yes, all other things being equal. I have an obligation to my fellow citizens that I do not have to citizens of other countries. I suspect people in other countries feel the same way, and I don't condemn them for that.

 

[Cleon]

Re: Re: Re: Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

Uh, because they were picked up on a battlefield in Afghanistan while shooting at American soldiers, I guess.

Were they? All of them?

While this blind faith in the whole "if they were caught, they were doing something wrong" rationale is rather touching, it's also rather frightening.

 

[BPSCG]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

Were they? All of them?

While this blind faith in the whole "if they were caught, they were doing something wrong" rationale is rather touching, it's also rather frightening.

Any evidence to support the shoplifting-at-Wal-Mart hypothesis?

 

[Cleon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

Any evidence to support the shoplifting-at-Wal-Mart hypothesis?

Your hypothesis, not mine. Don't forget the "wrong place, wrong time" hypothesis, the "might have said something positive about the Taliban at one point" hypothesis, the "mistaken identity" hypothesis, the "minor functionary" hypothesis, the "same or similar name" hypothesis, the "soldiers had a bad day and weren't real concerned with checking" hypothesis, or the "caught hanging with the wrong people" hypothesis. The fact that you don't know for certain that they "were picked up on a battlefield in Afghanistan while shooting at American soldiers" doesn't mean the only alternative is "shoplifting at Wal-Mart."

But keep to your blind faith. By all means. It illustrates something to the rest of us.

That's the funny thing about false dichotomies...They share so much in common with strawmen.

 

[Skeptic]

I'd like to believe all humans are of equal worth, and none deserving of death before their time.

I dunno. I think mass murderers deserve death earlier than babies, for instance.

Saying that they deserve death, exactly how are you different from them?

In the same way that those who say a murderer deserves death are different than the murderer who killed his victim.

 

[Darat]

Since as far as I know many of them have not been found guilty of anything (despite quite literally years of detention for some of them) I can understand how they, like many other prisoners in the past, have opted on one the few means of protest that prisoners can use.

I think it is sad and I think this camp is a disgrace for us in the democratic countries that lend support to it.

If we support law and order and more importantly justice then we should be pushing the authorities to remedy the injustice of the camp.

 

[Manny]

How many German PoWs were taken and detained in Great Britain? Of those, how many were convicted of anything? Of those not convicted, how many were released whilst hotilities were ongoing? For that matter, how many were not involved in active combat at the time of their detention and could be described as "wrong place wrong time" captures?

 

[Random]

Re: Re: Re: Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

Uh, because they were picked up on a battlefield in Afghanistan while shooting at American soldiers, I guess. If any of them are at Gitmo because they were caught shoplifting at Wal-Mart, I withdraw the OP.
I believe Americans are inherently more worthy of my help (e.g., tax dollars) than foreigners, yes, all other things being equal. I have an obligation to my fellow citizens that I do not have to citizens of other countries. I suspect people in other countries feel the same way, and I don't condemn them for that.

A lot of people are currently moldering in American gulags, sorry, “Super Fun Happy Places”. Some of the ways of getting put into an SFHP include:

1.) Engaging in Terrorism.
2.) Shooting at foreign troops as they invade your country.
3.) Being given to US troops by local warlords who then receive a cash reward.
4.) Driving a cab and picking up a passenger who doesn’t have an ID.
5.) Walking around in the general vicinity of a suicide bombing.
6.) Having a relative who fits into categories 1-5.
7.) Having an acquaintance who fits into categories 1-5.
8.) Having a name similar to someone who fits into categories 1-5
9.) Bad luck.

Not all of the things on this list are really deserving of de facto life imprisonment.

Also, Afghanistan was kind of a mess. Did you know that a civilian who spontaneously takes up arms against an invading army is covered by the Geneva Convention under certain circumstances? For all of Bush’s protestations to the contrary, I am certain that at least some of the people held in the SFHPs around the world are being held in violation of military and international law.

 

[Darat]

How many German PoWs were taken and detained in Great Britain? Of those, how many were convicted of anything? Of those not convicted, how many were released whilst hotilities were ongoing? For that matter, how many were not involved in active combat at the time of their detention and could be described as "wrong place wrong time" captures?

As far as I am aware the USA has very much maintained and even strenuously argued that these people are not prisoners of war.

(ETA)

Also a lot of what we (the British) did in the WWII I consider to have been with the benefit of hindsight barbaric.

 

[BPSCG]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

Don't forget the "wrong place, wrong time" hypothesis, the "might have said something positive about the Taliban at one point" hypothesis, the "mistaken identity" hypothesis, the "minor functionary" hypothesis, the "same or similar name" hypothesis, the "soldiers had a bad day and weren't real concerned with checking" hypothesis, or the "caught hanging with the wrong people" hypothesis.

Okay. Any evidence for any of those hypotheses?

Here's a hypothesis: These guys are playing the public-relations angle like a violin, as just one more front in the war. "Let's gin up some outrage against the evil American oppressors!"

 

[toddjh]

How many German PoWs were taken and detained in Great Britain? Of those, how many were convicted of anything? Of those not convicted, how many were released whilst hotilities were ongoing? For that matter, how many were not involved in active combat at the time of their detention and could be described as "wrong place wrong time" captures?

So the detainees at Gitmo are prisoners of war, then?

Also, World War II was a declared war with a clear end. As far as I know, no war has been declared now, and the de facto government of Afghanistan is more or less gone, replaced with one which is nominally our ally. How long after Germany surrendered did they keep those POWs?

Jeremy

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

Okay. Any evidence for any of those hypotheses?

Here's a hypothesis: These guys are playing the public-relations angle like a violin, as just one more front in the war. "Let's gin up some outrage against the evil American oppressors!"

Unfortunately when they are kept in a prison without being tried then the oppression is real.

 

[Manny]

As far as I am aware the USA has very much maintained and even strenuously argued that these people are not prisoners of war.

True, but they are detainees of war nonetheless. The POW/non-POW thing is really only relevent in that we retain the right to interrogate these guys and to keep them from conspiring among themselves, whereas with POWs you're only allowed to collect name, rank, serial number and you have to put them all together. That they're not legally POWs doesn't make them less likely to go right back to the battlefield to the extent they're let go before DoD is ready to let them go.

Also a lot of what we (the British) did in the WWII I consider to have been with the benefit of hindsight barbaric.

Even keeping prisoners detained during the pendency of the war?

 

[toddjh]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gitmo Prisoners Starving Themselves to Death

Okay. Any evidence for any of those hypotheses?

Any evidence for yours? The American justice system has long decided that any error should be made on the side of caution. "I'd rather see ten guilty men go free than one innocent jailed," isn't that the maxim?

Obviously some concessions must be made when dealing with a life-or-death situation, but I don't think we can chuck that principle out the window entirely. If they're so sure these people are murderous terrorists, there must be some evidence to support that, no?

Here's a hypothesis: These guys are playing the public-relations angle like a violin, as just one more front in the war.

Very possible (assuming there's a war--I haven't seen Congress declare one yet). There should still be some evidence either way.

Jeremy

 

[Manny]

Also, World War II was a declared war with a clear end. As far as I know, no war has been declared now, and the de facto government of Afghanistan is more or less gone, replaced with one which is nominally our ally. How long after Germany surrendered did they keep those POWs?

The first repatriations didn't occur until one year after the end of the war. They continued for three years after that, with the last voluntary repatriation (some POWs wanted to stay in Britain) occuring in 1949. We're already doing better than that, and hostilities are still ongoing.