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Geert Wilders Speaks: Anti-Qur'an Film

kosai

Recently Audited Thetan Cluster
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Aug 19, 2005
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This man's movie Fitna should be coming out soon and riots already have begun, I think he's brave to be speaking out. Why don't we have this kind of "right-winger" here in America? This guy makes sense rather than the "we'll bring them freedom" B.S. we are fed here. I can't wait to watch his film however his interview is also thought provoking and hopefully highlights a new direction in Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jUuzdfqfc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W6twYw4E8w&feature=related
 
This man's movie Fitna should be coming out soon and riots already have begun, I think he's brave to be speaking out. Why don't we have this kind of "right-winger" here in America? This guy makes sense rather than the "we'll bring them freedom" B.S. we are fed here. I can't wait to watch his film however his interview is also thought provoking and hopefully highlights a new direction in Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jUuzdfqfc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W6twYw4E8w&feature=related

I will relay Geert the message that you think he makes sense. He will be thrilled to hear this ;)

In the European context (or more specifically the Dutch context) this guy makes about as much sense as Alex Jones in the States. I can see that you might consider him a more tolerable right-wing nut, but he is still a right-wing nut.

[The above is, obviously, my opinion. Suffice it to say that I don't think this movie will add anything to the debate except for a lot of shouting.]
 
I will relay Geert the message that you think he makes sense. He will be thrilled to hear this ;)

In the European context (or more specifically the Dutch context) this guy makes about as much sense as Alex Jones in the States. I can see that you might consider him a more tolerable right-wing nut, but he is still a right-wing nut.

[The above is, obviously, my opinion. Suffice it to say that I don't think this movie will add anything to the debate except for a lot of shouting.]

Haha thanks for passing along the message ;)

I'm mainly going from his interview and he doesn't come across as the same as our right wing (I'm a democrat here.) I appreciate his acknowledgement the west is correct and islamic values lack a role in modern society. I haven't seen Geert make any conspiracy theory style claims like an Alex Jones but if you have some quotes of his more nutty side I'd like to see them. As far as the movie creating shouting, I think shouting is great and could be the beginning of real change. You must create debate before you expect any shift in perception.
 
Haha thanks for passing along the message ;)

I'm mainly going from his interview and he doesn't come across as the same as our right wing (I'm a democrat here.) I appreciate his acknowledgement the west is correct and islamic values lack a role in modern society. I haven't seen Geert make any conspiracy theory style claims like an Alex Jones but if you have some quotes of his more nutty side I'd like to see them. As far as the movie creating shouting, I think shouting is great and could be the beginning of real change. You must create debate before you expect any shift in perception.

Frankly I wish he would be a tad more (Alex Jones) nutty, in that case there would be something to laugh at/about. Unfortunately Mr. Wilders is very clever, when he appears in public you will never find him expressing his views in anything other than an apparently reasonable manner.

If you contrast this however with the things he says in parliament (where he, rightly, enjoys immunity) the rat comes out of the hat, there he reveals himself as the bigot he truly is.

Contrary to what he says in public I do not believe that Mr. Wilders is genuinely interested in opening a dialogue with the Muslim community. Insults lead to closed minds, and Wilders knows this. I suspect (but this is no more than a suspicion, mind you) that his ultra-right wing supporters (think Dutch version of Stormfront) are silently hoping that some crazy idiot martyrs himself and Wilders thus swelling their ranks.

I'm going to stop ranting now, lest I commit a Godwin....
 
Frankly I wish he would be a tad more (Alex Jones) nutty, in that case there would be something to laugh at/about. Unfortunately Mr. Wilders is very clever, when he appears in public you will never find him expressing his views in anything other than an apparently reasonable manner.

No offense, but what you are basically saying is that you wish he would make unreasonable remarks so that you could easily dismiss him. Since he doesn't, it's difficult to write him off. As I said I'm a liberal but these statements he's making are sound judgements in my opinion. We have to judge people on what they say and do and I don't see him doing or saying anything crazy. Should we really project a "hidden agenda" on him? Obviously since he is one of your politicians you know more about him than I can but I've heard him speak and become insterested in what he has to say, therefore I'd like to hear more. If he's a right wing zealot and it can be displayed so, believe me I can easily dismiss him as well.

If you contrast this however with the things he says in parliament (where he, rightly, enjoys immunity) the rat comes out of the hat, there he reveals himself as the bigot he truly is.

Is there any recordings or transcripts of bigotted things he has said? I'm not a fan of racist comments so if you can point me to where he has said anything of the sort I want to read it.

Contrary to what he says in public I do not believe that Mr. Wilders is genuinely interested in opening a dialogue with the Muslim community. Insults lead to closed minds, and Wilders knows this. I suspect (but this is no more than a suspicion, mind you) that his ultra-right wing supporters (think Dutch version of Stormfront) are silently hoping that some crazy idiot martyrs himself and Wilders thus swelling their ranks.

I'm going to stop ranting now, lest I commit a Godwin....

Insults do not lead to closed minds in my opinion, threats of violence against those using their right to free speech leads to an uninformed public. Acting upon those threats is where the barbaric acts begin, making movies or comics encourage debate and discussion. Let's not blame those who are creating dialogue. It's the "Nobody deserves criticism about their beliefs" attitude that is close minded.
 
Perhaps a better comparison would be betweet Geert and Pat Buchannan instead of Alex Jones?
 
I heard about him on NPR yesterday in my car, so I ran in and fired up my laptop to Youtube to listen. The strangest thing about him is his hair, where the puffy part meets the forehead. And the blonde color...he looks like a pro-wrestler, from the neck up. Speaking of necks, I give him credit for sticking his out. The Netherlands is a small country and as I understand it he is in hiding for criticizing a religion, which we do here on this forum every day (anonymously.) Muslims, ya' got to luv' 'em, eh?

His premise rings true that his country is known the world over as the most tolerant, while being a tolerant culture toward an intolerant culture is misguided. And, he goes one step further. Apparently the intolerant culture gets special favors from the tolerant government which they do not tolerate.
 
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No offense, but what you are basically saying is that you wish he would make unreasonable remarks so that you could easily dismiss him. Since he doesn't, it's difficult to write him off. As I said I'm a liberal but these statements he's making are sound judgements in my opinion. We have to judge people on what they say and do and I don't see him doing or saying anything crazy. Should we really project a "hidden agenda" on him? Obviously since he is one of your politicians you know more about him than I can but I've heard him speak and become insterested in what he has to say, therefore I'd like to hear more. If he's a right wing zealot and it can be displayed so, believe me I can easily dismiss him as well.

None taken. What I was saying was that, and I am not going to feign objectivity here, is that Mr. Wilders comes across by what he says and does as rather dishonest.

As a point in case, recently Mr. Wilders was invited by the Prime-Minister to discuss this movie. After the meeting, in which the Prime-Minister and the Foreign Affairs minister had expressed their concern about the movie and the consequences it might have for Dutch civil servants stationed abroad, Mr. Wilders only stated that he felt intimidated and that he feared his right to free speech had been put to question. Now I don't know what went on during that meeting but I sincerely doubt that intimidation is an accurate description. (If it is accurate I am sorely disappointed in my elected officials).

Second point in case. Last week Mr. Wilders offered to allow the administration to preview the movie. A very wise decision in my opinion. He had however one condition: That the administration would not ban the movie based on that preview. Again this seems reasonable, until you consider that any Dutch civil servant (including members of the administration) have a duty to report a suspected criminal offence. In the case of this particular movie this could (but probably wouldn't) lead to a court order surpressing the release of said movie pending legal proceedings. Considering the fact that Mr. Wilders himself is a civil servant he must have been aware of this fact and that as a consequence the administration could not agree to his terms. You can imagine however that this fact was not reflected in his public statements regarding this matter and that he merely played the underdog.

It's machinations like these, and again my view on these matters is definitely colored, that make me say that I wish that Wilders would be a bit more of a crackpot in public. That would make it easier (for me) to dismiss him as "mostly harmless" (like Alex Jones). Unfortunately however, Mr. Wilders is a lot smarter than Alex Jones and is succeeding as we speak to drive a wedge between Muslim and non-Muslim citizens of the Netherlands. Mr. Wilders is (in my view) insidious and because of that an awful lot more dangerous than some nutjob like Alex Jones.

Is there any recordings or transcripts of bigotted things he has said? I'm not a fan of racist comments so if you can point me to where he has said anything of the sort I want to read it.

Transcripts of the meetings of the Dutch Parliament are available online but they are in Dutch (obviously), so unless you are proficient in Dutch it won't help you. If you are: http://www.tweedekamer.nl

Insults do not lead to closed minds in my opinion, threats of violence against those using their right to free speech leads to an uninformed public. Acting upon those threats is where the barbaric acts begin, making movies or comics encourage debate and discussion. Let's not blame those who are creating dialogue. It's the "Nobody deserves criticism about their beliefs" attitude that is close minded.

I am in complete agreement with you here, an insult (singular) can engender very meaningful discussions and be ultimately fruitful. There is a tipping point however when continuous insults start to sound like (or become) persecution. Now I am not saying that Muslims around the world should go around rioting in response to this, this is also not conducive to a constructive debate and I do not believe that giving in to intimidation is the way to go. It is the fact that I am a big fan of freedom of speech that Mr. Wilders' bullying behavior rubs me the wrong way: It's bad publicity for freedom of speech.

Mr. Wilders is that playground bully who, when confronted with the reckoning, ran crying home to hide behind his mother's skirts. [But I guess I am projecting ;)]
 
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Second point in case. Last week Mr. Wilders offered to allow the administration to preview the movie. A very wise decision in my opinion. He had however one condition: That the administration would not ban the movie based on that preview. Again this seems reasonable, until you consider that any Dutch civil servant (including members of the administration) have a duty to report a suspected criminal offence. In the case of this particular movie this could (but probably wouldn't) lead to a court order surpressing the release of said movie pending legal proceedings. Considering the fact that Mr. Wilders himself is a civil servant he must have been aware of this fact and that as a consequence the administration could not agree to his terms. You can imagine however that this fact was not reflected in his public statements regarding this matter and that he merely played the underdog.
I hadn't looked at it that way -- with the duty to report. Now would it really matter, in practice? You can upload the movie on youtube or wherever anyhow; if he wants to spread the movie he can do so anyhow and no-one can stop him in this day and age.

The story I had picked up from the news was that our National Terrorism Coordinator (*) had asked Wilders for a preview so he could assess the security risk posed by the film and take appropriate measures before release of the movie. And that Wilders then made a whole lot of fuss about this very reasonable request. To note, Wilders himself is constantly accompanied by two bodyguards due to threats he has received.

(*) Yes, that's his job title :)

As another story I could mention that Wilders complained last week that our PM had made a lot of fuss about the movie, and that it otherwise would not have been known in the world. But it's Wilders himself who has been shouting from last November that he was making this movie. Only last week, he mentioned that he was negotiating with the public broadcasting associations about airing it on national TV within a couple of days. Otherwise, he'd release it on the internet, but that would take another two weeks. Huh? He already has a website, so what problem is it uploading one avi-file???

My take on his machinations is that he does everything to stay in the picture. But he has definitely miscalculated the time span. It's still 2.5 years to the next elections :) and after this movie, I wouldn't know what new things he'd have to stay in the news.

Transcripts of the meetings of the Dutch Parliament are available online but they are in Dutch (obviously), so unless you are proficient in Dutch it won't help you. If you are: http://www.tweedekamer.nl
His own website has some translations too, e.g., this one.


I am in complete agreement with you here, an insult (singular) can engender very meaningful discussions and be ultimately fruitful. There is a tipping point however when continuous insults start to sound like (or become) persecution.
And Wilders is continuously repeating insults, without wanting to go in debate. Muslims have asked him to have a live debate, e.g.,
here, where eight highly-educated muslims of Moroccan ancestry invited him for debate and he declined; or here, where he declines to have a debate with the Dutch Muslim Council, saying such a debate is pointless.

As it is, Wilders' continuous insults do drown and stifle, unfortunately, any meaningful debate on integration of (muslim) immigrants.

Now I am not saying that Muslims around the world should go around rioting in response to this, this is also not conducive to a constructive debate and I do not believe that giving in to intimidation is the way to go. It is the fact that I am a big fan of freedom of speech that Mr. Wilders' bullying behavior rubs me the wrong way: It's bad publicity for freedom of speech.
In the "freedom of speech" department, Wilders is a big contradiction: on the one hand, he claims freedom of speech for his own utterances, and praises it as a big Western accomplishment, but on the other hand, he wants to ban the Quran. And he does so in Parliament, as if it should be enacted as law, and in public, but not in front of the DA or a judge who could rule within the existing bounds on freedom of speech.

Mr. Wilders is that playground bully who, when confronted with the reckoning, ran crying home to hide behind his mother's skirts. [But I guess I am projecting ;)]
This is basically also what Dutch journalist Francisco van Jole mentioned last Friday: journalists who might ask critical questions, are not allowed an interview with Wilders. On the other hand, when it suits him, he throws some sound bite at the press.
 
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Thanks for the well written responses Phaedrus74 and ddt it's helped me get a better fleshed out picture of him. However, I can't say I disagree with him about not wanting to debate "eight highly-educated muslims." Most of us here would also see debating against 8 highly-educated Christians in the same light. If you are highly educated in a religion, you may know a lot, however a lot of what you know is likely to be rubbish.

I have debated with some well educated muslims in the past and they do the same as Christians I've debated. Truth be told, the extremist's interpretation is no more wrong or right than anyone elses because I think as most of us know there is no wrong or right in religion, it's simply not real. Religious people in general debate the same way... They have been taught this(take your pick) is the book with all the answers to the questions of life, however, big however, it's at the same time a very unclear text. Any mistake pointed out to people about the bible or koran respond with "It was probably translated wrong." or "It's not the correct interpretation." The scholar types actually begin to accept so much of their text as incorrect then they can become obsessed in finding a new true interpretation, when in truth the holy books contains nothing true. The scholar types are just the ones most involved in this endless search. Debating these folks is a little pointless as they are just the ones deepest in and conversely the ones with the most to lose if someone was able to prove the holy book is worthless.

I don't understand this talk about him trying to censor or omit the Qur'an, as far as I know his idea is the opposite. Bringing to light the many questionable ayah in the Qur'an which will cause a violent reaction in the muslim world. He's publishing parts of the book he's trying to censor and you are saying that makes him an enemy of free speech?
 
I hadn't looked at it that way -- with the duty to report. Now would it really matter, in practice? You can upload the movie on youtube or wherever anyhow; if he wants to spread the movie he can do so anyhow and no-one can stop him in this day and age.

Precisely, it was a win-win situation for Wilders:
- Either they decline the preview for the legal reasons cited and Wilders appears very reasonable
- Or they do preview it in which case they can:
* Ban the damn thing --> Wilders kickes up a fuss
* Not ban the damn thing --> Wilders interprets this as implicit support

As I said, he's very clever....
 
Thanks for the well written responses Phaedrus74 and ddt it's helped me get a better fleshed out picture of him. However, I can't say I disagree with him about not wanting to debate "eight highly-educated muslims." Most of us here would also see debating against 8 highly-educated Christians in the same light. If you are highly educated in a religion, you may know a lot, however a lot of what you know is likely to be rubbish.
You're welcome! As to the proposed debate, I now see I poorly worded myself. The eight people were muslim and highly-educated, but not theologians or the like. A translation of a few paragraphs of the newspaper article I linked to previously:
Wilders refuses debate requests

They are young, successful, fully integrated, and present themselves as the "binding generation". Eight highly-educated Moroccan Dutchmen want to break the negative spiral in the muslim debate. And a conversation with Freedom Party (PVV) leader Geert Wilders should be part of that.

On January 22nd, the group -- amongst which Mohammed Allach, technical manager of second-league football club VVV -- invited Geert Wilders per letter for a talk. These eight, all having a muslim background, deemed it high time to "bring the debate to the next level". And: "The people who voted for you, expect that you not only point at the problems, but also solve them". One-and-a-half month later, Wilders has not yet reacted.

They are not the only ones to be ignored. The PVV leader rejects categorically all invitations, we learn from organisations and TV shows that are related to islam or multiculturality. Wilders announced to start a "liberal jihad against islam", but he skirts away from debate. He is laying, as it were, a cordon sanitaire around the muslim community.

Success story
Let's look at the experience of the multicultural Student Union Netherlands. "We first invited Mr. Wilders, and later other MP's of his party, but nobody wanted", says SUN secretary Harun Yildrim. "In Wilders' eyes, the muslims are the problem. He doesn't realize there are muslims who want to make a success story out of the immigrant problem". You can't fight Wilders' tactics, Yildrim fears. "He makes a sound bite in the media and then unplugs his telephone. That way, he survives his words."
The rest of the article gives more examples of institutions that tried to get in contact with him, to no avail.

I have debated with some well educated muslims in the past and they do the same as Christians I've debated. Truth be told, the extremist's interpretation is no more wrong or right than anyone elses because I think as most of us know there is no wrong or right in religion, it's simply not real. [...]
While I (also being atheist) agree with what you write here, I don't think that would be the main point of such a debate or talk. I think these people want to show Wilders that Islam is reconcilable with a modern, western lifestyle. One of the things Wilders also has claimed is that there is no such thing as "moderate Islam", but that Islam at its core always is extremist. These people challenge his view of Islam, and that's why he avoids this dialogue, IMHO.

I don't understand this talk about him trying to censor or omit the Qur'an, as far as I know his idea is the opposite. Bringing to light the many questionable ayah in the Qur'an which will cause a violent reaction in the muslim world. He's publishing parts of the book he's trying to censor and you are saying that makes him an enemy of free speech?
Nice you point at another inconsistency in his stance :). But it''s true nonetheless, it's also in the wiki page, references and all... First he advocated ripping out the offending pages, leaving the Quran "as thin as a Donald Duck magazine", later he moved on to a comparison with Mein Kampf and advocating a ban.
 
And Wilders is continuously repeating insults, without wanting to go in debate. Muslims have asked him to have a live debate, e.g.,
here, where eight highly-educated muslims of Moroccan ancestry invited him for debate and he declined; or here, where he declines to have a debate with the Dutch Muslim Council, saying such a debate is pointless.

It is most likely going to be useless and I understand Wilders. I stopped watching any debates with muslim representatives like Ayman Mazyek of the central council of muslims because whenever he is confronted with critical questions all he does is say things like "that has nothing to do with Islam what-so-ever!" or tells only half of the story. It's basically the same with the other people that attend debates and have some official position.

While I (also being atheist) agree with what you write here, I don't think that would be the main point of such a debate or talk. I think these people want to show Wilders that Islam is reconcilable with a modern, western lifestyle. One of the things Wilders also has claimed is that there is no such thing as "moderate Islam", but that Islam at its core always is extremist. These people challenge his view of Islam, and that's why he avoids this dialogue, IMHO.

This is exactly what people like Ayman Mazyek try telling you, but what use has it when they never admit there are wrongs in their religion which are still regarded as mainstream Islamic positions? These people tell you about some moderate Islam but make themselves implausible by not even admitting that an official position is out there and still the mainstream interpretation used, thus contradict their views.
 
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You're welcome! As to the proposed debate, I now see I poorly worded myself. The eight people were muslim and highly-educated, but not theologians or the like. A translation of a few paragraphs of the newspaper article I linked to previously:

Thank you for the translation, I can assure you I did check the link earlier but when I saw I can't read it then I didn't. :)

While I (also being atheist) agree with what you write here, I don't think that would be the main point of such a debate or talk. I think these people want to show Wilders that Islam is reconcilable with a modern, western lifestyle. One of the things Wilders also has claimed is that there is no such thing as "moderate Islam", but that Islam at its core always is extremist. These people challenge his view of Islam, and that's why he avoids this dialogue, IMHO.

Now I see your meaning, he was asked to a debate with moderate muslims which makes a lot more sense. However, I wonder what they would say about his right to make his film or, for example, the mohammed cartoons. Even moderate muslims *usually* still oppose this because they say it's "disrespectful." That is something which I very strongly disagree with.

Nice you point at another inconsistency in his stance :). But it''s true nonetheless, it's also in the wiki page, references and all... First he advocated ripping out the offending pages, leaving the Quran "as thin as a Donald Duck magazine", later he moved on to a comparison with Mein Kampf and advocating a ban.

Wow, you are right on. Thanks for the link to the wikipage I found this article here:

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/ned070808mc

He is a hypocrate then, which is very unfortunate, I wanted to like him really I did. You can not oppose any written material and still be a champion of free speech IMO. Guess I should have known he'd be a little off with that hair. So my love affair has ended.... why is it always the way with the politicians? ;)
 
This is exactly what people like Ayman Mazyek try telling you, but what use has it when they never admit there are wrongs in their religion which are still regarded as mainstream Islamic positions? These people tell you about some moderate Islam but make themselves implausible by not even admitting that an official position is out there and still the mainstream interpretation used, thus contradict their views.

I read this interview (in German) with Ayman Mazyek (president of the German Muslim Council), and he seems a very sensible guy. So nothing wrong there.

Do you have any examples of points where such moderates differ from the official position? Or do you have links to articles by honest, credible sources? I don't think Wilders is anywhere near a credible source, as you may have guessed by now :).
 
That would make it easier (for me) to dismiss him as "mostly harmless" (like Alex Jones). Unfortunately however, Mr. Wilders is a lot smarter than Alex Jones and is succeeding as we speak to drive a wedge between Muslim and non-Muslim citizens of the Netherlands. Mr. Wilders is (in my view) insidious and because of that an awful lot more dangerous than some nutjob like Alex Jones.

I still like him. Just wondering though. He's cool with the Jews, right? :o
 
Oh, it'll all blow over. All the Dutch moslems will come out and
demonstrate saying "Hey, we don't agree with this silly bigoted
little fellow's film, and we won't choose to watch it, but it's OK to
show it. We're civilized people and we do live in a free country, after
all"
and Mijnheer Wilders can lay off his armed guards and walk
down to the shops whenever he wants.



And it'll rain whisky and naked ladies that day too.
 
I still like him. Just wondering though. He's cool with the Jews, right? :o

I don't know what his stance regarding Jews and Israel is. But I would be very surprised if he went on record spouting anti-semitism, so also in that respect: no Alex Jones.

ddt appears to be somewhat better informed than I am so maybe he can shed some light on this issue...
 
Oh, it'll all blow over. All the Dutch moslems will come out and
demonstrate saying "Hey, we don't agree with this silly bigoted
little fellow's film, and we won't choose to watch it, but it's OK to
show it. We're civilized people and we do live in a free country, after
all"
and Mijnheer Wilders can lay off his armed guards and walk
down to the shops whenever he wants.

And it'll rain whisky and naked ladies that day too.

I already marked my calendar, I never pass up free booze... ;)
 

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