Gas prices: Why our apathy now?

Iamme

Philosopher
I
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
Messages
6,215
Remember the last time gas prices *neared* $2 a gallon, but didn't reach that mark? Everyone got all up in the air. Even our representatives got involved and tried to investigate if it was price-gouging by the industry, or if it was necessitated by the foreign oil market. Remember?

Now, gas prices are not only *over* $2 gallon, but they are substantially more...and climbing higher every few days or so, with seemingly no end in sight. (I am paying $2. 299/gal. now)

We are now hearing that gas may hit $3 a gallon. And the attitude of people now seems to be...
"What *else* is new?! "

Really!

Can't we as a people band together about anything? I heard from the lady at the gas station today, when I paid her, that even the volume of gas pumped really isn't going down. She said people need to drive, and they are probably cutting back in other areas if their budgets are being crimped.

Are you resigned to the high gas prices?
 
I am not sure from your post what you propose in order to bring prices down.


The point about people using gasoline seems to be a completely separate issue. Demand -- from the pump owner's perspective -- is inelastic in the short term. I expect gas consumption will only change a little right now.

But you willsee a shift in the long term as people move away from SUV's and ow mileage vehicles when it comes time to replace them. Some manufacturers are already reporting a slow-down in sales. The new hybrid cars will also become more popular with the higher prices.
 
Iamme said:
Can't we as a people band together about anything?
Click to expand...

It doesn't appear so. But if you want I'll band together with you to lobby federal and state representatives to make building refineries less probamatic. It is my (wee-brained) view that this is the main problem, with the cost of oil p/b being a lesser, yet still significant, problem. One (the former) can be solved using internal politics. The other (the latter) requires external politics and possibly a bit more.

We haven't built a refinery in roughly two decades and have closed several (links available if you make me). Domestic demand for gas currently exceeds domestic refinery output by a couple of million gallons a year. The recent explosion/fire at a refinery caused a bit of brief panic/speculation on wall street. While it turned out to be not as bad as originally suspected, the panic/speculation about a single refinery gives me some pause.
 
If you add it up, the cost per year for a reasonably wealthy american is trivial. Some will feel it pretty hard, but they were already finding it hard to make ends meet, others will gripe about it, and find it costs less per year than a new plasma screen TV.
 
Gas consumption may be perceived as an inelastic, or captive market, but there are folks for whom gas isn't a luxury...some flat out need it for their work.

And there are others who will find that they are faced with a choice between gas and food, or rent, and will find ways to stop using so much gas, since there is no easy realistic way to 'just stop paying rent', etc...

Will it be a significant enough a number to cause a big drop in profits? I don't know...but even if it does, the gas companies will probably expect to be bailed out by the taxpayers.
 
Well, adjusted for inflation, gas prices are still at a pretty reasonable level (historically speaking).

Unless gas started costing a good bit more, I would say that most people will do little more than gripe and continue to drive their BA SUVs.
 
Crossbow said:
Well, adjusted for inflation, gas prices are still at a pretty reasonable level (historically speaking).
Click to expand...

Not to take it out on you, Crossbow, since many others have said the same thing, but if I hear it one more time......

You can make all the figures you want and draw all the charts, but when I have to pull two $20's from my wallet and get nothing back, I FEEL THAT!!!

I wonder if the effect in the American psyche is less because so many people use credit/debit cards these days rather than paying cash money.:confused:

Unless gas started costing a good bit more, I would say that most people will do little more than gripe and continue to drive their BA SUVs.
Click to expand...

And you're probably right, sez the owner of a Toyota Highlander (but 21MPG). I drive about 12,000 miles/yr, get 21-22mpg, so I use around 570 gallons/year, or between $1,000-$1,500 for gas every year. Can I afford it? Yes, because i am doing pretty well in the salary department. Someone making half of what I do? big pull on the wallet.
 
Grammatron said:
Higher gas prices are the best thing to happen to Environment since recycling.
Click to expand...

er...yea...well...we'll see. I'm a bit dubious about the real effects, not to mention causes, of recycling. Not doubting you, mind you, just being cautious.

If higher gas prices cause a technologically premature shift to other sources of energy which, while appearing to be more friendly on the surface, turn out to actually be less friendly then I'm not so sure your, or my, idea of 'good for the environment' will pan out. Again, just being cautious. Unintended consequences and whatnot.

But lets take it slow. How about a nice tall glass of crisp, clean ice water while we discuss it. Ignore the aftertaste. It's just Methanol. It's practically harmless in the quantities served.

Pretend it's a badly made martini.
 
"(I am paying $2. 299/gal. now)"
I wish I was paying that much I think its near $6.50 a gall here in the UK and still going up.

It's a fact of life I,m afraid It's never going to go down by much, this trend is on an upward spiral as oil runs out, which it surely will at some time in the near future. Demand is starting to outstrip supply and I'm sure that we are going to have more oil wars in the next ten years. Without an alternative fuel we have nowhere to go :(
 
Rob Lister said:
er...yea...well...we'll see. I'm a bit dubious about the real effects, not to mention causes, of recycling. Not doubting you, mind you, just being cautious.

If higher gas prices cause a technologically premature shift to other sources of energy which, while appearing to be more friendly on the surface, turn out to actually be less friendly then I'm not so sure your, or my, idea of 'good for the environment' will pan out. Again, just being cautious. Unintended consequences and whatnot.

But lets take it slow. How about a nice tall glass of crisp, clean ice water while we discuss it. Ignore the aftertaste. It's just Methanol. It's practically harmless in the quantities served.

Pretend it's a badly made martini.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, there are more alternatives to using gas than other sources of energy. You can either travel les, ride a bike, take a bus, commute, move closer to your work, find a different job, etc.

The gas prices has not affected how I travel right now, they have, however, affected my plans and potential choice of a new car.
 
Doomdude said:
"(I am paying $2. 299/gal. now)"
I wish I was paying that much I think its near $6.50 a gall here in the UK and still going up.

It's a fact of life I,m afraid It's never going to go down by much, this trend is on an upward spiral as oil runs out, which it surely will at some time in the near future. Demand is starting to outstrip supply and I'm sure that we are going to have more oil wars in the next ten years. Without an alternative fuel we have nowhere to go :(
Click to expand...

Whoa! Back off. Your price does not truly reflect the actual [capitalist] costs. Ours doesn't either but it does a little more closely. Much more than half of your cost is taxes.

That can be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on what they do with the revenues.

For example: suppose the U.S. government taxed oil at 100% b. For ever dollar spent, they got a dollar and used it to buy another b and pumped that extra oil into our own used-up oil-fields in Texas.

Silly thought, I know, but I just wanted to put an example out there.
 
I agree that UK petrol is largely made up of tax and that increases in a barrel of oil do not hit us as hard as the USA because we allready pay a high price. But the reason our fuel is taxed so high is partly to discourage use of cars which I think works to a small degree. I know it effects me in my usage where a few years ago I would go on a drive on a Sunday I now allways have a destination in mind no waste of fuel if I can help it.
 
Doomdude said:
I agree that UK petrol is largely made up of tax and that increases in a barrel of oil do not hit us as hard as the USA because we allready pay a high price. But the reason our fuel is taxed so high is partly to discourage use of cars which I think works to a small degree. I know it effects me in my usage where a few years ago I would go on a drive on a Sunday I now allways have a destination in mind no waste of fuel if I can help it.
Click to expand...

Ah! But what do they do with the money? Think about it. Your government is used to the revenue a garnered from a certain amount of petrol sold. If the price increases, demand will naturally decrease. If demand decreases, so too will revenues. If revenues decrease, the services previously paid for by the petrol revenues must therefore also decline. Either that or the tax will have to be made up from different sources. You're already paying more for the petrol and on top if it you're going to either get less needed(?) servies or a greater tax burden.

What they do with the revenue is all important.
 
Doomdude said:
I agree that UK petrol is largely made up of tax and that increases in a barrel of oil do not hit us as hard as the USA because we allready pay a high price.
Click to expand...
The slide in the dollar also cushions the impact in non-dollar economies. The US is getting a double-whammy - triple, I suppose, because they drive more. In a big country you can spread out.
 
Rob Lister said:
Ah! But what do they do with the money? Think about it. Your government is used to the revenue a garnered from a certain amount of petrol sold. If the price increases, demand will naturally decrease. If demand decreases, so too will revenues. If revenues decrease, the services previously paid for by the petrol revenues must therefore also decline. Either that or the tax will have to be made up from different sources. You're already paying more for the petrol and on top if it you're going to either get less needed(?) servies or a greater tax burden.

What they do with the revenue is all important.
Click to expand...
If transport moves to trains they can cut that subsidy. Roads take less stress, so less maintenance is required and capital costs of new roads are reduced. Emergency service can get around better on quieter roads, with savings there. Lower costs on the NHS from RTA's. Nothing's simple, is it?
 
Don't get me on "what do the government do with our taxes" or we will be here all night!!!!
 
I'm not sure what anybody's point is. It's perhaps less than relevant that Americans pay (relatively) peanuts for their petrol. What is it that people propose? Violent bloody revolution? If you don't want to pay that, don't pay that. Yeah, I'm really annoyed about the fact I can't get a new 40" plasma TV in every room. So I don't have them.

I'm sure it does hit harder people who earn less. Personally, I can't afford to get to work in New Zealand every day, so I work nearer home. Certainly, if there are mobility problems for people in more remote areas, the government could somehow subsidise those people's travel; but that doesn't affect the price of petrol.

If you don't want to pay it, don't. If you pay it, that's how much it costs.

Cheers,
Rat.
 
Rat said:
I'm not sure what anybody's point is. It's perhaps less than relevant that Americans pay (relatively) peanuts for their petrol. What is it that people propose? Violent bloody revolution? If you don't want to pay that, don't pay that. Yeah, I'm really annoyed about the fact I can't get a new 40" plasma TV in every room. So I don't have them.

I'm sure it does hit harder people who earn less. Personally, I can't afford to get to work in New Zealand every day, so I work nearer home. Certainly, if there are mobility problems for people in more remote areas, the government could somehow subsidise those people's travel; but that doesn't affect the price of petrol.

If you don't want to pay it, don't. If you pay it, that's how much it costs.

Cheers,
Rat.
Click to expand...

The point (which you practically prove in an anecdotal kinda way) is that greater cost = less demand. But...less demand=bad things if it hurts revenues not specifically earmarked for solving the problems/supporting the structure that current demand...er...demands.

We pay almost exactly the same for petrol as you do*, btw, but we do pay less* to our government for allowing** us access to it.

.
.
.
.
.
*Perhaps not really less but certainly less directly and less obvious. Their are many hidden costs that are not paid by the direct tax on our petrol. A subsection of an aircraft carrier might represent one of those costs. Terrorism another.

**'Allowing' is probably not the best word but we're friends and Shank probably isn't reading this so it doesn't matter.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom