Galileo was wrong?? Pope was right??

[SkepticalScience]

(didn't know whether to post this here or religion & philosophy - sorry if it's in the wrong place!!)

So I was talking with a fundie who said that the pope was right and Galileo was wrong.

My fundie says, "the Pope forced Galileo to withdraw his teachings that the world was not the center of the universe. But science has shown that the universe is infinite and growing - so that makes every point the center of the universe. The pope was right, the earth IS the center of the universe"

I am specifically wondering what science has to say about the concept of "center of the universe". What's wrong with the fundies argument??

SS!

 

[Garrette]

Non-scientist answer:

First, by her logic she can't say that the Pope was right and Galileo was wrong. She would have to say that the Pope was right and Galileo was right, too.

Second, she'll have to say you're right when you say the Crab Nebula is the center of the universe.

Third, I do not believe that Galileo specifically said that the earth is not the center of the universe. He said that the sun does not orbit the eart but rather the earth orbits the sun. This remains undisputed despite any philosophical demonstration that every point in the universe is the center of it.

Fourth, she will now have to say that the Pope is wrong in having recanted the church's stance against Galileo (can't remember when this happened, but it was recent). Which Pope does she want to believe?

 

[Donks]

(didn't know whether to post this here or religion & philosophy - sorry if it's in the wrong place!!)

So I was talking with a fundie who said that the pope was right and Galileo was wrong.

My fundie says, "the Pope forced Galileo to withdraw his teachings that the world was not the center of the universe. But science has shown that the universe is infinite and growing - so that makes every point the center of the universe. The pope was right, the earth IS the center of the universe"

I am specifically wondering what science has to say about the concept of "center of the universe". What's wrong with the fundies argument??

SS!

The claim Galileo made was that the Earth revolved around the Sun. The Pope held the opposite view. The Pope was wrong.

You seem to have a lot of debates with fundies. Call me skeptical, but I'm starting to think this is more like one of those "I have a friend" stories.

 

[SkepticalScience]

LOL!

Thanks guys!

Donks, I have debates (really discussions) with the same core set of fundies. And I'm sure after our discussions, they go to their internet sites, or ask their friends, how to answer a point that I might have raised.

Just as I do.

SS!

 

[TeaBag420]

I can't believe you missed such a golden opportunity to direct their attention to Uranus.

 

[SkepticalScience]

Ha Ha Ha!

Classic, TeaBag, Classic!

So, is there no center of the universe? If not, how come?

Just because it's infinite??

I'm not sure I really like that because, it would seem that if I could somehow STOP the universe from expanding, I could find a center. Start it up again, and there might be a DIFFERENT center because of the different rates of various parts of the universe. . . but, each time you stop it, you should be able to find a center.

Maybe the center always moves around or something.

 

[Donks]

So, is there no center of the universe? If not, how come?

Just because it's infinite??

I'm not sure I really like that because, it would seem that if I could somehow STOP the universe from expanding, I could find a center. Start it up again, and there might be a DIFFERENT center because of the different rates of various parts of the universe. . . but, each time you stop it, you should be able to find a center.

Maybe the center always moves around or something.

I'm not sure if there is a center or not. I don't know much about astronomy so I won't speculate... much.
But it seems to me that at the very least you can't find it in any practical way. Doesn't matter if you measure from Earth, a different galaxy, or Uranus (there you go TeaBag), almost everything will be moving away from you, so you'll see yourself as being "in the center."

 

[ppnl]

(didn't know whether to post this here or religion & philosophy - sorry if it's in the wrong place!!)

So I was talking with a fundie who said that the pope was right and Galileo was wrong.

My fundie says, "the Pope forced Galileo to withdraw his teachings that the world was not the center of the universe. But science has shown that the universe is infinite and growing - so that makes every point the center of the universe. The pope was right, the earth IS the center of the universe"

I am specifically wondering what science has to say about the concept of "center of the universe". What's wrong with the fundies argument??

SS!

Actually Galileo's argument was wrong even if his conclusion was correct.

As for the pope well he was just pissed and called for the thumb screws. That isn't even an arguement. But it was wrong.

 

[LW]

Re: Re: Galileo was wrong?? Pope was right??

The claim Galileo made was that the Earth revolved around the Sun. The Pope held the opposite view. The Pope was wrong.

And it should also be remembered that Galileo didn't really get into trouble by claiming that Earth orbits Sun but for portraying the pope as an idiot. Not that it makes the pope's view correct but it explains the reaction.

 

[CurtC]

I have heard it said, by people who I think understand relativity better than I do, that in a relativistic sense, all free-falling reference frames are equally valid, so it's just as true to say the Sun goes around the Earth as vice-versa.

I'll throw that out to let the rest of you who know more chew on it.

 

[Bronze Dog]

Actually, as I understand it, our universe is sort of like Sphereland: The center is outside the three dimensional space we perceive, along one of the other 15 or 16 dimensions.

 

[Harlequin]

I went to the centre of the universe last Summer and I can prove it. I've got a T-shirt around here somewhere that I bought as a souvenir.

 

[Hutch]

My best suggestion is to go to the Bad Astronomy Bullentin Board (or BABB) at www.badastronomy.com, and look in the "Against the Mainstream" section. Been several good discussions on Geocentrism there.

Basically, as I understand it from the BABB discussions (I am not an astronomer or scientist), there is geocentrism (small g), which basically means you can caculate, based on the Therory of Relativaty and some higher maths, that Earth is the center of the Universe. Of course, you can use the same calculations to show that Mars, the Sun, or a 5km asteriod 1.5M miles from Ceres is the center of the universe. Don't ask me about the math behind it, go forth to the BABB and become wiser.

And then there is Geocentrism (capitalized) which is the Bible-based therory that the Earth is standing still and the Universe rotates around it (after all, as the most important creation of God, we have to be the center).

The problem is that many Geocentrists have siezed upon the science in geocentrism and loudly crowed that they are vindicated, without having a clue what it actually means.

At least, that is how I read it.

 

[Ziggurat]

So, is there no center of the universe? If not, how come?

Just because it's infinite??

The universe may or may not be infinite (I believe that cosmologists are leaning towards infinite). But either way, present theories don't include a center. For an infinite universe, it shouldn't be too hard to understand why there is no center (anywhere you go, it's still infinite in all directions). For a finite universe, the issue has to do with intrinsic versus extrinsic geometry. Consider the surface of a sphere. If you ask what the center of that surface is, most people will tell you that it's the center of the sphere. But the center of the sphere isn't part of the surface of the sphere (it's extrinsic). If you were confined to that surface (intrinsic geometry - like the book Flatland), you wouldn't be able to identify a center. In a sense, there ISN'T a center. Similarly with a finite universe: if the universe is finite, it's wrapped in on itself, with no edges. We're stuck dealing with the universe from an intrinsic perspective, and so a finite universe also has no center either.

 

[John Bentley]

Darn it, Ziggurat stole my reply!

The Fundies don't have a problem with the physical location of the center of the universe, because it is generally agreed that there is no such location. Most Fundies have a problem with the idea that the Earth is located on an outer band of a minor portion of a dime a dozen galaxy, and is insignificant when compared with the immensity of the universe.

 

[Ladewig]

Re: Re: Galileo was wrong?? Pope was right??

You seem to have a lot of debates with fundies. Call me skeptical, but I'm starting to think this is more like one of those "I have a friend" stories.

I can empathize a bit. I am having a hard time believing that a real fundy would ever say "The Pope was right."

 

[Ladewig]

The universe may or may not be infinite (I believe that cosmologists are leaning towards infinite). But either way, present theories don't include a center. For an infinite universe, it shouldn't be too hard to understand why there is no center (anywhere you go, it's still infinite in all directions). For a finite universe, the issue has to do with intrinsic versus extrinsic geometry. Consider the surface of a sphere. If you ask what the center of that surface is, most people will tell you that it's the center of the sphere. But the center of the sphere isn't part of the surface of the sphere (it's extrinsic). If you were confined to that surface (intrinsic geometry - like the book Flatland), you wouldn't be able to identify a center. In a sense, there ISN'T a center. Similarly with a finite universe: if the universe is finite, it's wrapped in on itself, with no edges. We're stuck dealing with the universe from an intrinsic perspective, and so a finite universe also has no center either.

The sphere model becomes even more useful if you imagine dots painted on the surface of a balloon that is being inflated. If you sit on one dot and measure the distances to the other dots, it will appear that all dots are moving away from you and that the dots that are further away are moving away from you faster than the dots nearby. The people sitting on such a dot would be convinced that they are the center of the surface. Yet, from a three-dimensional perspective, it is clear that not only are they not the center, but also that there is no center of the surface.

Similarly, from our perspective, it can appear that we are the center of the universe (all galaxies moving away from us and those farthest away are moving away the fastest), but careful thought will show otherwise.


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Also, the Pope was basing his beliefs on a literal interpretation of scriptures such as the book of Joshua:

10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

The church at that time reasoned that if the sun stood still for a whole day, then the sun must revolve around the earth, therefore the earth is the center of everything.

 

[Dr Adequate]

He is the actual condemnation of Galileo.

The first proposition, that the sun is the center and does not revolve about the earth, is foolish, absurd, false in theology, and heretical, because expressly contrary to Holy Scripture.

The second proposition, that the earth is not the center but revolves about the sun, is absurd, false in philosophy, and, from a theological point of view at least, opposed to the true faith.

You can see that even applying the weird reasoning of the fundies you're talking to, the Pope was wrong to declare "the Sun is not the centre".

And of course the Earth does revolve around the Sun. There's this thing called gravity...

 

[Ohmer]

Fourth, she will now have to say that the Pope is wrong in having recanted the church's stance against Galileo (can't remember when this happened, but it was recent). Which Pope does she want to believe?

1992. It only took 359 years.

 

[c4ts]

(didn't know whether to post this here or religion & philosophy - sorry if it's in the wrong place!!)

So I was talking with a fundie who said that the pope was right and Galileo was wrong.

My fundie says, "the Pope forced Galileo to withdraw his teachings that the world was not the center of the universe. But science has shown that the universe is infinite and growing - so that makes every point the center of the universe. The pope was right, the earth IS the center of the universe"

I am specifically wondering what science has to say about the concept of "center of the universe". What's wrong with the fundies argument??

SS!

As we all know, the great mass of the universe forces the Earth to the center, and all the stars go around it on the sides of the great celestial sphere, and the sun moves along a backwards track. You can't disprove me, Copernicus was in league with the devil, so was Kepler, I win the debate!