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Free Will or Will Taken?

INRM

Philosopher
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I was researching the work of a doctor named Jose Delgado
http://www.wireheading.com/delgado/brainchips.pdf

And in one part (3rd page, under "Taming a fighting Bull") it is mentioned that in response to stimulation, one patient turned his head side to side in responce to stimulation insisting it was his voluntary movement.

I remember there was this doctor with a Japanese name who was trying to conduct a similar test by making someone's arm move or something and making it feel like the person actually willingly moved it to prove free will was an illusion or something. However, this test done by Delgado was done decades ago.

And this brings on the final question.
1.) Does this prove free will doesn't exist?
2.) Does this approve that free will normally exists but can be taken
3.) Does this feeling of it being voluntary the result of an emotional feeling of having moved it? (They were stimulating the limbic system IIRC)

Thank you,
INRM
 
There a psychological disorder where people who are paralyzed claim that they aren't paralyzed but are just choosing not to move that specific limb, and go to great cognitive lengths to justify it. (Oh, I'm not reaching for that candy with the hand you claim is paralyzed because I don't like candy anymore.) Isn't this just the opposite?

You seem to think free will is some mystical thing, like a soul, that scientist haven't been able to discover yet with their cold, black hearts, when there are actual smart people who know how to figure out answers to questions.

Do optical illusions prove that we don't have free will?
 
it doesn't prove free will doesn't exist - but merely shows that our notion of free will might just be a construct of the mind.....
 
Last edited:
strathmeyer said:
You seem to think free will is some mystical thing, like a soul, that scientist haven't been able to discover yet with their cold, black hearts, when there are actual smart people who know how to figure out answers to questions.
Click to expand...

this seems a bit of an over-reaction to the OP....where do you pull that inference from?
 
I think what it shows is that we can't conclude that free will exists because it feels like it does.

If some of the time when we do things involuntarily it feels like we're willing them to be done, this questions whether any of the times that it feels like we're willing actions we're doing them voluntarily.

It doesn't mean that we aren't doing any of those things voluntarily. But it does mean that in order to differentiate between voluntary and involuntary actions - or between actions brought about by "free will" (whatever that is) and those that don't require acts of will - we need more than the feeling that free will is involved.

Anyway, thanks for the post!
 
Split-brain confabulation is interesting. Split-brain patients have had the connection between the left and right hemisphere of the brain severed. From memory this procedure was done on patients with extremely debilitating epilepsy.

American Scientist Online

"In an appropriate experimental context, stimuli can be channeled just to the isolated right hemisphere, and it can respond solo (with a movement, rather than words, because this hemisphere is generally mute). When the split-brain subject is asked why she did what she did, the talky left hemisphere confabulates a motive rather than admit ignorance."

This is just a review of a book, there is better stuff on this out there.
 
Who made you sit down and type that post?

God?
Click to expand...

That is a poor argument. Do you require anything other than physics to explain why a ball rolls down an incline, or how a Pinball machine or a game of Plinko works? Human "motives" are simply (far) more complex.
 
Note to self:

Many neuron hives believe that they are not following the path of least resistance.
 
Mangafranga said:
Split-brain confabulation is interesting. Split-brain patients have had the connection between the left and right hemisphere of the brain severed. From memory this procedure was done on patients with extremely debilitating epilepsy.

American Scientist Online

"In an appropriate experimental context, stimuli can be channeled just to the isolated right hemisphere, and it can respond solo (with a movement, rather than words, because this hemisphere is generally mute). When the split-brain subject is asked why she did what she did, the talky left hemisphere confabulates a motive rather than admit ignorance."

This is just a review of a book, there is better stuff on this out there.
Click to expand...

Confabulation, is that like Korsakoff psychosis? Please specify on the split brain effect
 
INRM said:
Confabulation, is that like Korsakoff psychosis? Please specify on the split brain effect
Click to expand...

Confabulating as I understand it is essentially when a person says "This is the reason why I did x" when the person has no idea why they did x, and they do not realize that they are making it up. As I understand it people with Korsakoff psychosis do confabulate, however this is not what confabulation is.

The Split Brain Experiments
"In the 1960s, there was no other cure for people who suffered from a special kind of epilepsy than by cutting off the connection, corpus callosum, between the two hemispheres.In the 1960s, there was no other cure for people who suffered from a special kind of epilepsy than by cutting off the connection, corpus callosum, between the two hemispheres."

As I understand it this means that the two halves of the brain do not have any way to communicate. Now what is done is you show a picture to the half of the brain that doesn't control language (cover one eye), have them pick an object with the hand that is controlled by that hemisphere, and then ask them why. The result is often that they make up some story as to why they chose like they did.

Visuospatial processing and the right-hemisphere interpreter(pdf), Corballis, Brain and Cognition 53 (2003)

"Split-brain patients will often confabulate when asked to explain choices made by the right hemisphere. For example, patient J.W. was shown a picture of a bell tower in his left visual hemifield. He was then asked to choose between four pictures by pointing with his left hand. The pictures depicted four musical instruments, one of which was a bell. J.W. chose the bell, and when asked to explain why he said that he ‘‘must have heard a bell ringing on [his] way into the lab.’’ The speaking left hemisphere, observing the response controlled by the mute right, interpreted the response in a context consistent with its knowledge. Since it had no knowledge of the picture of the bell tower it found a feasible reason to account for the selection of the bell."

If you do a search for "split brain" there is a heap of information out there.​
 
This would fairly conclusively prove that consciousness is a product of the brain? Or would it?

I'm fasinated... let's hear some arguments...

INRM
 
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