Free will and determinism
- Thread starter Robin
- Start date
Sorry to have to do this but you'll need to provide the definition you want us to use for "freewill" in your question - over the years I've learnt that people often have slightly or even very different definitions to one another.
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
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- Apr 29, 2004
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- 14,971
Since the whole point of the poll is to explore the different ways that people understand "free will" it wouldn't make sense to provide a definition.
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
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- Aug 14, 2016
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I'm glad that we will be able to settle this question once and for all with a Forum Poll.
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
The answer is 'Yes!' due to the fact that religion can mean whatever one wants religion to mean
Sorry, that didn't come across to me from your poll and opening post.
Wouldn't it be better to simply ask "what does free will mean to you?", whether someone answers with a yes or no won't provide any information on the definition someone is using to answer your question.
Just for myself I could answer yes or no depending on what definition and meaning I was using as I don't think freewill has a single definition.
My overall view is that the phrase is a folk language holdover, like say the word sunrise, yes it describes something but that something is not what the folk language baggage assumed it was.
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill
~ Rush
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill
~ Rush
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
You could always just give your answer to the poll, and then explain in the comments what definition you used and how it informed your answer.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
I voted Planet X because I simply cannot conceive of a definition of free will which is consistent with the sum total of human knowledge, so I cannot answer the question. It seems to me, though, that it is perfectly possible for a converse set of statements to be true:
1. Nothing Bob does in his entire life was already inevitable even immediately before he did it.
2. Bob does not have free will.
Dave
1. Nothing Bob does in his entire life was already inevitable even immediately before he did it.
2. Bob does not have free will.
Dave
Thanks for the advice but the poll doesn't let you chose two options.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Then pick Planet X.
Anyway, I picked "don't know", not because I have any problems with the concept of free will, but because I have no idea if determinism the way Robin describes it is even possible.
It's not just about the definition of free will. We must also consider the definition of Bob.
The amalgamation of particles/quantum waves we all conveniently refer to as Bob does not have free will. Claim 1 applies.
The fictional active agent we all (including Bob) call Bob and whom we all (including Bob) regard as in control of Bob's decisions, has a fictional power we call free will. Claim 2 applies.
Our experiences occur primarily within the narrative realm of the latter description, so it's as reasonable to say "Bob has free will" as it is to say e.g. "That collection of particles over there is a chair."
The amalgamation of particles/quantum waves we all conveniently refer to as Bob does not have free will. Claim 1 applies.
The fictional active agent we all (including Bob) call Bob and whom we all (including Bob) regard as in control of Bob's decisions, has a fictional power we call free will. Claim 2 applies.
Our experiences occur primarily within the narrative realm of the latter description, so it's as reasonable to say "Bob has free will" as it is to say e.g. "That collection of particles over there is a chair."
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Thermal
August Member
The whole gig with defining free will kind of hinges on whether the process of a running consciousness works on the bouncing billiard ball approach, doesn't it?
Yes.
Because if I could see your future, your actions and outcomes would be inevitable from my perspective. It would not mean that you did not freely choose those actions along the way to the eventual outcomes.
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Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
I'm Bob. I don't know.
Thermal
August Member
It works well in reverse, too. If you look at the past, every action invariably produced a result. doesn't mean it had to happen that way, just that it did.
Lack of free will does not entail predeterminism.
Things can be (and are) indeterministic... but that does not entail free will.
The balls' trajectories in the video below are indeterministic ... but yet the metal balls have no free will...
Things can be (and are) indeterministic... but that does not entail free will.
The balls' trajectories in the video below are indeterministic ... but yet the metal balls have no free will...
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Thermal
August Member
You ever see a good pool player? They can predict exactly how a ball will ricochet around and what will do. That's fine for inanimate objects. But does a living consciousness operate like a billiard ball?
Also, the Galton board has built-in fails for comparisons here. You can't control the precise spin of each ball as it enters, or whether it is perfectly round, or the vibrations on the board causing 'random' changes in trajectory, how straight the nails/pins are driven, etc. If you could account for these things, I'd bet you could predict exactly the path a ball would take.